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Am I the same entity or person from the moment I was born?

arthwollipot said:
I find that it is when people try to artificially build communities that they run into problems. I am a part of a community of atheists, skeptics, lovers of curiosity and students of the sword, because those are the people I enjoy hanging out with. I never set out to build that community, it formed naturally.
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Churches seem successful at it.
 
Carrot Flower King said:
A selection of highlights:

"....de Selby develops a substance ("D.M.P.") capable of extracting all oxygen from an airtight enclosure, thus disrupting the sequentiality of time, incidentally making it possible to produce fine mature whiskey in a week. De Selby vows to use the substance to destroy the world in the name of God."

"...a number of de Selby's works including Golden Hours, The Country Album, A Memoir of Garcia, Layman's Atlas and the Codex. The fictional Bassett and Hatchjaw wrote biographies Lux Mundi: A memoir of de Selby and de Selby's Life and Times, both lost. Le Fournier, du Garbandier, Kraus and Le Clerque are supposed sources of de Selby material, but their works (suiting the fiction) were lost."

"As discussed in Irish Philosophy, de Selby believed human existence was "a succession of static experiences each infinitely brief" and "a journey is a hallucination" which he demonstrated by travelling from Bath to Folkestone by means of picture postcards of the supposed route, barometric instruments, clocks and a device to regulate gaslight to simulate sunlight at various "times" of day. Another theory of de Selby's was that mirrors held the secret to eternity, claiming a huge array of parallel mirrors allowed him to see his own face as a boy of twelve."

And that's before we get to atomic/molecular theory...
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And the real cause of night.
 
arthwollipot said:
The original churches were naturally-formed communities. It was only later that ecclesiastical heirarchies were invented.
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Churches and their communities are still being formed. And I don't think there is anything natural about how their communities are formed. Perhaps we mean different things.
 
acbytesla said:
Churches and their communities are still being formed. And I don't think there is anything natural about how their communities are formed. Perhaps we mean different things.
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Possibly. Let me try explaining what I'm thinking in a different way.

Humans are social animals. They naturally and spontaneously form communities. It has been my experience that the communities that are formed naturally and spontaneously are more reliable than communities that are pulled together top-down in some kind of effort to "make a community", because in the spontaneous communities there is more of a social connection between members, because all of the members share a common interest - that's why they formed a community.

Yes, churches have been very successful at building artificial communities around their stories and their "moral" teachings. But they're telling people what to think. A spontaneous community comes together because the members are already thinking alike.

Some of the biggest megachurches operate much like raves, but without as much E. Everybody is there vibing to the same things, and having a great old time. But when they leave the rave and go home, are they really more connected to one another? I'd say that the sense of connection they felt in the church with the music pumping and the DJ winding everyone up is an artificial sense of community. It has no staying power (and yes, I'm speaking from personal lived experience here). On the other hand, communities that form spontaneously due to common interests and ideals have real staying power.

Does that make sense?
 
arthwollipot said:
Possibly. Let me try explaining what I'm thinking in a different way.

Humans are social animals. They naturally and spontaneously form communities. It has been my experience that the communities that are formed naturally and spontaneously are more reliable than communities that are pulled together top-down in some kind of effort to "make a community", because in the spontaneous communities there is more of a social connection between members, because all of the members share a common interest - that's why they formed a community.

Yes, churches have been very successful at building artificial communities around their stories and their "moral" teachings. But they're telling people what to think. A spontaneous community comes together because the members are already thinking alike.

Some of the biggest megachurches operate much like raves, but without as much E. Everybody is there vibing to the same things, and having a great old time. But when they leave the rave and go home, are they really more connected to one another? I'd say that the sense of connection they felt in the church with the music pumping and the DJ winding everyone up is an artificial sense of community. It has no staying power (and yes, I'm speaking from personal lived experience here). On the other hand, communities that form spontaneously due to common interests and ideals have real staying power.

Does that make sense?
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No, it makes total sense. I agree with almost all of that. Still, I think what they do that you miss out on when you're not a Christian is that you have an excuse to socialize with people you generally agree with. Or at least you think you have. You really don't gave much of an excuse to gather with other atheists.

I have trouble socializing. And I spent decades in sales. You would think I would be better at it. Many atheists that were at one time religious will tell you that's what they miss. Being able to go somewhere often where you are welcome. It's like the Cheers bar.
 
catsmate said:
Bicyclism could fit well into Brentford, perhaps Marchant is a priest?
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You nearly lost me there, but my gurgle foo saved me...

Yes, that would be distinctly possible and would throw in many problems of inter-oeuvre relationships and hierarchies.

This would only be made worse If On A Winter's Night A Traveller ended up At Swim-Two-Birds...

And then how would we even begin to understand all the ramifications?
 
Carrot Flower King said:
You nearly lost me there, but my gurgle foo saved me...

Yes, that would be distinctly possible and would throw in many problems of inter-oeuvre relationships and hierarchies.

This would only be made worse If On A Winter's Night A Traveller ended up At Swim-Two-Birds...

And then how would we even begin to understand all the ramifications?
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Sorry, I am perhaps a bit over-fond of referring to obscure works.
 
According the the gospel of the Quran as interpreted by Emre his copy of the Quran is the only true words of Allah.

Of course that requires his divinely inspired interpretation direct from him and ChatGTP.

No other writings could possibly be useful or important as they are not direct from Allah.
 
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8enotto said:
According the the gospel of the Quran as interpreted by Emre his copy of the Quran is the only true words of Allah.

Of course that requires his divinely inspired interpretation direct from him and ChatGTP.

No other writings could possibly be useful or important as they are not direct from Allah.
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But, but, but Catsmate and I have introduced works which contain discussions completely relevant to Emre's original question, impinging on the nature and continuance of self and identity, both physical and spiritual...

These are important considerations.
 
Not written by Allah himself, irrelevant.

My dad took a very similar stance where HIS bible, with his understanding of it were the word of God himself.
I lived under this mindset for years myself believing he was a religious crackpot.
Mr. Miller, his preacher was important but dad just hadn't moved up in the (cult) church enough yet to displace him. But he knew he was long ago ready for it.

Emre is this same mindset. He doesn't care about anything that doesn't meet his end goal. He embraces everything that does including AI.
It's mental illness at some point.
 
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8enotto said:
Not written by Allah himself, irrelevant.

My dad took a very similar stance where HIS bible, with his understanding of it were the word of God himself.
I lived under this mindset for years myself believing he was a religious crackpot.
Mr. Miller, his preacher was important but dad just hadn't moved up in the (cult) church enough yet to displace him. But he knew he was long ago ready for it.

Emre is this same mindset. He doesn't care about anything that doesn't meet his end goal. He embraces everything that does including AI. It's mental illness at some point.
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Of course not.

But I don't know if it qualifies as a mental illness. It certainly becomes part of religious person's self identity. This is about self preservation and a kind of survival. Emre was probably taught from a very you age that Allah is the one true God. And this is repeated by himself over and over and over every day. 5 times a day minimum. That is some powerful indoctrination. Imagine how lost Emre would be if he ever allowed logic and critical thinking to be his guide. Instead of having everything laid out for him, he would Instead have to think for himself.

Life is easier in so many ways if you don't have to think. Or admit you don't know the answer to so many things. And that you may never know the answers.
 
It's gone quiet...

I reckon Emre has now been converted to the various works of Brian O'Nolan (under whichever pseudonym) and Italo Calvino.

And I shudder to think what might happen if he ever discovers Borges: his teeny tiny brain will just dissolve.
 
8enotto said:
Emre is this same mindset. He doesn't care about anything that doesn't meet his end goal. He embraces everything that does including AI.
It's mental illness at some point.
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No professional mental health body in the world defines belief in religion by itself to be a mental illness.
 
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