All those burning Afghans...

[Hutch]

Burning Afghans is not a Good thing..

Hasn't made cnn.com, but heard it on NPR and found a reference here:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4c55fcc8-41c6-11da-a45d-00000e2511c8.html

Apparently:

The US has launched a criminal investigation into allegations that its soldiers burned the bodies of Taliban killed by coalition forces in Afghanistan. The move follows the release by Australian television of footage showing what appears to be US soldiers watching two burning bodies.

This is not a good thing because:

The prompt US military response to the allegations underscores concerns that such action could prompt violence in Afghanistan, as burning bodies in Muslim culture is considered to be desecration.

Hopefully this will be acted upon. But it ain't helping matters. If winning the "hearts and minds" of the Afghans are among our goals, it ain't helping at all...

Press on.

edited due to poor taste--mine

 

[Dan Beaird]

I heard about it this morning along with an audio clip that was reported to have come from American psychops soldiers saying something to the effect of: You are all cowards, you have allowed your comrades to be laid out on their bellies facing west and burned. The strange part about this is that the sound clip was in English. It seems bizarre that we would be sending our psych warfare messages to the enemy in a language they don't understand.

Supposedly the soldiers justified themselves by saying the bodies had been laying there for some time and were beginning to smell. If the terrain prohibited burial or they had fear that the bodies may be trapped then burning them in place is an understandable option. Taking the opportunity to taunt any enemy in the area may also be understandable but it sure looks bad and can be easily construed as a violation of the laws of war. I think this is one of those situations that isn't criminal per se, but will be sold that way to most of the world.

 

[Ed]

I heard about it this morning along with an audio clip that was reported to have come from American psychops soldiers saying something to the effect of: You are all cowards, you have allowed your comrades to be laid out on their bellies facing west and burned. The strange part about this is that the sound clip was in English. It seems bizarre that we would be sending our psych warfare messages to the enemy in a language they don't understand.

Supposedly the soldiers justified themselves by saying the bodies had been laying there for some time and were beginning to smell. If the terrain prohibited burial or they had fear that the bodies may be trapped then burning them in place is an understandable option. Taking the opportunity to taunt any enemy in the area may also be understandable but it sure looks bad and can be easily construed as a violation of the laws of war. I think this is one of those situations that isn't criminal per se, but will be sold that way to most of the world.

In the scheme of things this rates about a 2 on my Care-O-Meter.

 

[Dan Beaird]

In the scheme of things this rates about a 2 on my Care-O-Meter.

Probably less than that on mine. Although Al Jazeera is pumping it for all it's worth under the heading of U.S. probes torturing Afghan bodies.:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9893

Can you torture someone who's already dead? I thought we sub-contracted that stuff to Jordan and Egypt anyway.

 

[Grammatron]

Probably less than that on mine. Although Al Jazeera is pumping it for all it's worth under the heading of U.S. probes torturing Afghan bodies.:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9893

Can you torture someone who's already dead? I thought we sub-contracted that stuff to Jordan and Egypt anyway.

I suppose you could torture a dead body.

 

[Earthborn]

Although Al Jazeera is pumping it for all it's worth under the heading of U.S. probes torturing Afghan bodies.:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9893

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that that actually isn't the website of Al Jazeera television? That's common knowledge right now, isn't it?

Here is the article by the real Al Jazeera, titled: "Inquiry ordered into Taliban burning".

 

[Cleon]

Probably less than that on mine. Although Al Jazeera is pumping it for all it's worth under the heading of U.S. probes torturing Afghan bodies.:

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=9893

Can you torture someone who's already dead? I thought we sub-contracted that stuff to Jordan and Egypt anyway.

Except that's not the AlJazeera website. The real AlJazeera article on the burning incident can be found here, and is entitled "Inquiry ordered into Taliban burning." Those biased, biased bastards.

 

[Dr Adequate]

In the scheme of things this rates about a 2 on my Care-O-Meter.

Fortunately, the US Army isn't as dumb as you are:

The prompt US military response to the allegations underscores concerns that such action could prompt violence in Afghanistan.

That would be a reason to care, no?

But wait! However stupid and illegal these actions may have been, the Republicans are in power, so we should declare that everything's absolutely perfect.

 

[Tmy]

Supposedly the soldiers justified themselves by saying the bodies had been laying there for some time and were beginning to smell. If the terrain prohibited burial or they had fear that the bodies may be trapped then burning them in place is an understandable option.

I saw the tape. That excuse seems really lame. If they are hanging in the outskirts of town why the hell do they care about a couple of dead bodies??

It really looks bad. Kinda reminds me of those burned bodies that were hanging from bridges.

 

[Mycroft]

I saw the tape. That excuse seems really lame. If they are hanging in the outskirts of town why the hell do they care about a couple of dead bodies??

It really looks bad. Kinda reminds me of those burned bodies that were hanging from bridges.

It makes me think of that scene from Star Wars where Luke and Obi-Wan go back to Uncle Ben's farm only to find that the Imperial Storm Troopers have got there first and killed everyone.

 

[Batman Jr.]

I heard about it this morning along with an audio clip that was reported to have come from American psychops soldiers saying something to the effect of: You are all cowards, you have allowed your comrades to be laid out on their bellies facing west and burned. The strange part about this is that the sound clip was in English. It seems bizarre that we would be sending our psych warfare messages to the enemy in a language they don't understand.

Supposedly the soldiers justified themselves by saying the bodies had been laying there for some time and were beginning to smell. If the terrain prohibited burial or they had fear that the bodies may be trapped then burning them in place is an understandable option. Taking the opportunity to taunt any enemy in the area may also be understandable but it sure looks bad and can be easily construed as a violation of the laws of war. I think this is one of those situations that isn't criminal per se, but will be sold that way to most of the world.

I thought the psych-ops were intended to convince the opposition that we're the "good guys," not that we're insensitive, condescending bastards.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I didn't realize burning bodies was frowned upon in Islam. Is it from rivalry with/dislike of Zoroastrianism?

 

[Ed]

I didn't realize burning bodies was frowned upon in Islam. Is it from rivalry with/dislike of Zoroastrianism?

It depends upon whose. Outrage from elsewhere in the world also depends upon whose.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I didn't realize burning bodies was frowned upon in Islam. Is it from rivalry with/dislike of Zoroastrianism?

Zoroastrians also don't cremate. Surely the one thing everyone knows about Zoroastrians is their funary practices (hint: vultures).

Islam just inherited the from the general cultural background of the Middle East, which buried rather than cremated. So did Judaism, and certainly so did Christianity: cremation was considered weird and blasphemous right up until the nineteenth century.

It will not surprise you in the least to learn that there are still mad fundies who are of this opinion.

Actually, cremation is a Satanic defiance against the resurrection imply that once the body has turned to ashes God cannot recall it into judgment.

You have to admire the logic there.

 

[WildCat]

Zoroastrians also don't cremate. Surely the one thing everyone knows about Zoroastrians is their funary practices (hint: vultures).

Islam just inherited the from the general cultural background of the Middle East, which buried rather than cremated. So did Judaism, and certainly so did Christianity: cremation was considered weird and blasphemous right up until the nineteenth century.

It will not surprise you in the least to learn that there are still mad fundies who are of this opinion. You have to admire the logic there.

Perhaps that stemmed from the fact that in ancient times it was a practice associated w/ the conquering Romans? Or does it pre-date the Roman era?

ETA: Didn't the Greeks also cremate their dead?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Zoroastrians also don't cremate. Surely the one thing everyone knows about Zoroastrians is their funary practices (hint: vultures).

Oh, yeah. I forgot that, and my mental association of Zoroastrianism with fire altars just led me to assume they cremated.

I suppose in the future, when we have teleporters like on "Star Trek", someone will start using them to dispose of bodies by just dematerializing them. And then someone else will condemn the practice because of what some shepherd or carpenter purportedly said millennia earlier.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Fortunately, the US Army isn't as dumb as you are: That would be a reason to care, no?

Because of course, anyone who has an opinion different from Dr A's is an idiot.

But wait! However stupid and illegal these actions may have been, the Republicans are in power, so we should declare that everything's absolutely perfect.

Illegal? How are they illegal?

The Islamic world didn't seem to be too concerned about all those bodies that got burned in the WTC.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Perhaps that stemmed from the fact that in ancient times it was a practice associated w/ the conquering Romans?

Logic check: if the Jews had been practicing cremation before the Roman invasion, then it wouldn't have been particularly "associated with the conquering Romans". So from the comfort of my armchair, I'd say that's a "no".

ETA: Didn't the Greeks also cremate their dead?

So far as I can figure out, the Indo-European cultures usually cremated, the exception being the Zoroastrians because of the place fire plays in their religion; the Semitic peoples buried. Looking at Egyptian religion, this does seem to have had a religious dimension to it rather than merely being a pragmatic solution to the disposal of bodies.

In any case, the result was that when Christianity with its associated funerary practices came out of the Middle East, cremation was a pagan thing and burial was Christian.

Now Muhammed borrowed heavily from from Judaism and Christianity, but also I would guess (I don't know where I'd look it up) that even before Islam the Arabs didn't cremate, firstly because they are Semitic, and secondly: where would they get the wood?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Because of course, anyone who has an opinion different from Dr A's is an idiot.

That's one theory. And frankly, you're not a counterexample.

Illegal? How are they illegal?

Desecrating the bodies of your enemies is a war crime.

The Islamic world didn't seem to be too concerned about all those bodies that got burned in the WTC.

Do you have many pals in the Islamic world, or did you just make that up?

 

[neutrino_cannon]

Oh, yeah. I forgot that, and my mental association of Zoroastrianism with fire altars just led me to assume they cremated.

I suppose in the future, when we have teleporters like on "Star Trek", someone will start using them to dispose of bodies by just dematerializing them. And then someone else will condemn the practice because of what some shepherd or carpenter purportedly said millennia earlier.

They do actually cremate. Towers of silence are considered preferable (purity and all that), but cremation is considered acceptable in places where vultures picking people clean would raise eyebrows and legal problems like Britain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/customs/index.shtml source

Actually, I would guess that towers of silence are only common in Iran.

Back on topic, does anyone remember the story that Muslim rebels were shot with pork grease laced rounds when they were executed in the Phillipines? Is there any truth to this tale of when the army was deliberately un-PC?