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Aliens

In other words, what percentage of alien races are vorlon and what percentage are shadow? Hmmmmm...

Actually, I was just watching an episode with side-bar action. There's a race called the Lumati (who are clearly not superior), who are trying to decide whether or not the humans were superior or inferior to them. The Lumati made some strange comments about evolution, which Dr. Franklin countered, effectively stating that no sentient race is inferior.

Meanwhile, yes, in these 2nd season episodes, the Vorlons seem so advanced that their speech and even thinking is alien. Of course... I've seen the whole series before... ;)

BTW, I LOVE watching this series on DVD! I couldn't afford DVDs for years, and now I can watch the whole thing from start to finish. Nuts to TV! Even if I have to wait, I'm gonna watch series on DVD from here on...

ETA: If you're a fan of the show, this episode included Ivanova's infamous "sex" scene... you know... the one that starts with the words, "Boom-Shakka-Lakka-Lakka?" :D
 
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It could be argued that game theory suggests any highly evolved intelligent races we encounter will exhibit a respect for autonomy of others, if not empathy.

Yes. It could also be argued that game theory suggests any highly evolved intelligent races we encounter will try to exterminate us if they think they are capable of doing so in order to remove the possibility of any future threat to their own existence.

The problem with applying game theory to aliens isn't simply that we don't know how rational or irrational they are. It's more fundamental than that. Game theory makes predictions for how rational actors will act given their goals, desires, and preferences, but it cannot and does not determine what those are.

Frankly, I think the best prospect for peace between intelligent species on different planets comes from the fact that the distances are so large, doing anything other than just communicating is probably just too expensive to bother with. And even there, given the time delay for a round-trip message, I'm not sure the conversations would even be very interesting.
 
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Yes. It could also be argued that game theory suggests any highly evolved intelligent races we encounter will try to exterminate us if they think they are capable of doing so in order to remove the possibility of any future threat to their own existence.

The problem with applying game theory to aliens isn't simply that we don't know how rational or irrational they are. It's more fundamental than that. Game theory makes predictions for how rational actors will act given their goals, desires, and preferences, but it cannot and does not determine what those are.

Frankly, I think the best prospect for peace between intelligent species on different planets comes from the fact that the distances are so large, doing anything other than just communicating is probably just too expensive to bother with. And even there, given the time delay for a round-trip message, I'm not sure the conversations would even be very interesting.
You are forgetting the sub-space radio!!
 
Yes but with us empathetic humans, the respect for autonomy that we develop when dealing with each other tends to spill over into our dealings with non-human species (at least in the good humans). The result is that many of us will respect other beings, even when we are very much more powerful than they. Hence the tendancy of good humans to treat animals kindly, even if we plan on eating them. Will a similar thing happen in other intelligent races -- will they have the equivalent of positive anthropomorphism that humans exhibit?
I have a very basic problem with your argument here. You are beginning with an assumption that "good humans" are the ones who act in a way that you consider desirable; yet fail to define in any way what portion of the human population is actually made up of such "good humans".

Yes, there are some humans who, for example, empathize with the plight of (some) animals. Vegans might be a good example of this. Yet even the majority of vegans still tend to divide life into "superior" and "inferior", being more than willing, for example, to kill a mosquito that is biting them.

However, if we look at humanity as a whole, these people are a tiny minority of the overall population; in no way is such a world view either inevitable, or necessary, to the survival or success of the human species.

If you want to argue that some portion of an alien population might develop similar sentiments, I might go along with you. But the idea that it is somehow inevitable, an inescapable result of a certain level of civilization or accomplishment, I'd say that is nonsense.

You used the example of game theory to argue the 'advantage' of a particular kind of behavior; yet when perfectly legitimate arguments are expressed to demonstrate that the argument is valid only when those in the game are relatively equal, you ignore that entirely, and instead resort to referring to tiny portions of our overall population as somehow representative of some inevitable result in alien populations.

Let me give you an example to illustrate my point further -- consider an alien race that lives on a planet that is significantly more hostile than ours. A planet where competition for limited resources is very high, and where survival really is determined by who is the strongest. Evolutionary forces within such an environment would naturally select for those who were less empathetic to outsiders, since those outsiders represent a threat to their own existence.

In short -- if we assume an alien planet on which the conditions are very similar to those on our own planet, and on which the evolutionary pressures are similar to those on our own planet, it might be reasonable to assume that we'd end up with aliens at least somewhat similar to us.

But if we assume (as seems much more likely) that such aliens could exist on planets with conditions very different from our own, and on which the evolutionary pressures are very different from our own, it would be ridiculous to come to the conclusion that the 'final result' on all such planets would be to develop similar or parallel civilizations/cultures/values.
 
Just use baking soda in plastic shells for bullets. Really, I don't know why Ripley never thought of it.

I doubt such rounds would be sufficiently robust to penetrate the chitinous exoskeletal structure of the xenomorph.
 
It would just burst all the readily, wouldn't it? Either in the barrel or upon impact. Think of a paintball fired from a musket.

Plus if the shell was hard enough to get the baking soda through the skin, I doubt it would burst within the body and produce the acid-nullifying effect desired.

(I do love this sort of unbridled geekery :) )
 
There's no reason to suspect that that aliens whose species is divided into various tribes and who raid on one another in a form of genetic exogamy, driven by powerful sexual urges, are impossible, neither are any number of justifications for violence and mayhem in an alien species. Intelligent aliens may be powerfully repulsed by our appearance - if we're repulsed by the sight of roach, it's not unreasonable to think some organisms may be unable to view vertebrates as anything other than filth.

Just because humans have the capacity to subsume our instincts that doesn't all aliens would, too.
 
It would just burst all the readily, wouldn't it? Either in the barrel or upon impact. Think of a paintball fired from a musket.

Plus if the shell was hard enough to get the baking soda through the skin, I doubt it would burst within the body and produce the acid-nullifying effect desired.

(I do love this sort of unbridled geekery :) )

The plastic shell would have to be rigid enough to withstand being shot out of some kind of gun, for a start, or encased within some kind of cartridge which falls away after launch. I imagine if you made a shell with a hardened (pointed) leading end which was travelling fast enough then the leading face would penetrate the alien's skin, decelerating slightly and the rest of the plastic shell would then have slightly more momentum than the leading face. Meaning that the shell could be built in such a way that it was just hard enough to survive impact and then burst inside the alien

Or a hard shell with an impact-triggered explosive charge that had just enough delay time to ensure that it detonated within the alien's body would also work.
 
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Game theory pretty much involves situations where each side is equally capable of inflicting harm on the other side.

Really? Restriction to only "fair" games seems unnecessarily narrow, and I don't think game theory wears such blinders.

Consider that every single game in any Las Vegas casino is amenable to game theoretical analysis. The whole point of such games is to ensure that the house and player are not equally capable of inflicting harm on the other. Game theoretical analysis can quantify that inequality for various strategies of play.
 
Baking soda would be useless - even if the acid was no worse than concentrated Sulphuric/nitric or etc. And the established "organic" acid eats through layers of metal - support structure metal.

You could try to find out what the barrier chemistry in Colonial Marine assault/battle suits is.
 
What if their advancement is sufficient that they are incapable of recognizing us as of sufficient intelligence to be treated with respect beyond the level accorded any animate object.

I just read John Varley's The Ophiuchi Hotline, a SF novel from the '70's. In it, some aliens come and wipe out humans on Earth, leaving some small colonies around the solar system to struggle to survive.

They didn't really kill the humans so much as destroy everything humans had built on Earth, starving most of 'em within a year or so.

In any case, the invaders, which are never seen, are described by other aliens as being the top of 3 levels of intelligence, with dolphins and the like being the 2nd level, and humans and those other aliens as the 1st level.


I can easily conceive of something else being to consciousness as consciousness is to inanimate matter. We presume our essence is the top of all there is to be, with only increasing our intelligence (which may have nothing to do with consciousness directly) as the one and only scale along that "top line". Small mammals and maybe octopi or something at the dumb end just before it drops off into non-sentience, humans at the top, and transhumanism in the theoretical future.

But that may not be it at all.


Does this suggest there will never be a way to traverse the universe faster than light? Or does it suggest civilizations usually destroy themselves before they learn such techniques?

Well, the usual supposition is one of these three must be true:

A. That we exist shows intelligent life is likely.
B. Therefore we probably aren't the first
C. Even with restrictive physics, the universe should be clogged with people billions of years ago.
D. It doesn't seem so.

So what's wrong?

Besides assuming unlikely things, like every intelligent race exterminates itself, or goes into hiding, or decides not to leave their solar system, there's a new idea -- that future advanced races would run "ancestor simulations" ala The Matrix. And that the people poulating those simulations would greatly outnumber the number of "real" people.

Therefore we are probably in such a simulation.

In other words, the real universe, whatever that is, is long since choked, and simulations are the common order of the day.


Some of the futurists who reason along these lines tend to get bogged down in extrapolating our physics to develop the simulations, which would be difficult but possible. However, there's no reason to believe the simulated physics need resemble in any way whatsoever the "real" physics. One would only need that if one were doing something that depended on the physics modeling accurately. For all we know, the "real" world is a completely 3-D Euclidean space, and all this relativity is a weird physics designed just for the simulation.
 
There are too many assumptions, too many suppositions and to few data, I think. For example,
C. Even with restrictive physics, the universe should be clogged with people billions of years ago.
Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe eventually a stability point is reached and the population no longer grows.
This item assumes a human-like, pioneer/expansionist behavior. We just don't know if this is a rule, if this will continue and for how long.

D. It doesn't seem so.
Certainly it doesn't seem so, at least for a species somewhat similar to ours. But who knows, maybe some remarkably different species...

Maybe there's nothing wrong at al.
 
Just use baking soda in plastic shells for bullets. Really, I don't know why Ripley never thought of it.

Or just pop them with ordinary ball ammo and have a water cannon
standing by to scoosh them with copious water* to dilute the acid
spillage.

*or if you haven't got any copious water just use a lot of ordinary water.
 
Or just pop them with ordinary ball ammo and have a water cannon
standing by to scoosh them with copious water* to dilute the acid
spillage.

*or if you haven't got any copious water just use a lot of ordinary water.

as noted above, it is not "ordinary" acid: it is highly viscous (flows, but not fast), eats through metal quickly -and sticks to the metal until it has done that (hope no humans or important equipment is in the direction the water is, slowly, pushing/throwing the acid). Ideas are fine for normal acids (most anyway) but bad for this. Think of it as destructive Unobtainium (The Hole).

I thought this up in my copious free time.
 

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