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Larsen: How I know he drew a line? You told me!
How can it not be imaginary?

Reply: al Zwahiri called for jihad from Spain to Iraq. I said I don't know where the latitudes are, only the longitudes based on his statement. They are from Spain to Iraq.

Why do you think al Zawahiri would call for jihad from Spain to Iraq and then decide everything in between was "imaginary."

The longitudes of the area described by Zawahiri is West 4 degrees and east 45 degrees.
 
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SteveGrenard said:
Here is the data on moslems in Britain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom

www.minorityrights.org%a0/admin/Download/pdf/muslimsinbritain.pdf

see page 4.

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Give me a number, Steve. How many "devout Muslims" are there in the UK?

SteveGrenard said:
Larsen: How I know he drew a line? You told me!
How can it not be imaginary?

Reply: al Zwahiri called for jihad from Spain to Iraq. I said I don't know where the latitudes are, only the longitudes based on his statement. They are from Spain to Iraq.

Why do you think al Zawahiri would call for jihad from Spain to Iraq and then decide everything in between was "imaginary."

The longitudes of the area described by Zawahiri is West 4 degrees and east 45 degrees.
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Which includes most countries in Africa as well.

:hb:
 
Religion

Africans profess a wide variety of religious beliefs [3], with Christianity and Islam being the most widespread. Approximately 46.3% of all Africans are Christians and another 40.5% are Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa
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There are about 840 million people living in Africa so there are about 344 million muslims. There is no reason to assume that muslims do not want to finish islamicizing the rest of Africa.
 
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CFLarsen said:
And all of these are terrorists?
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I never said they were. With the number of devout muslims over 1 million enough of them either support jihad against Britiain or actively engage in it to constitute a grave threat.



Could you explain how Sudan is an enemy of Al Qaeda?
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I NEVER said Sudan per se was an enemy of AlQueda. Your question makes no sense. If you are talking about the situation in Somalia and the Sudan it is either Moslems in control or who want control who are waging jihad against the non-Muslim peoples of these two nations. The jihadist governments or rebel groups or militias are not enemies of Al Queda...if anything they are allies. As of this morning the muslim president of Sudan stated he takes inspiration from Hezbollah and doesn't want international intereference in his efforts to wage jihad (= killing or converting non-muslims).

Recently Time Magazine did a review of the situation in Africa which can explain it better than I can:

Is a New Islamic War Brewing in Africa?

As war rages in the Middle East, concerns are growing about the Horn of Africa, where tensions are on the rise between Islamic fundamentalists in Somalia and their neighbors in Ethiopia
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and this regarding Somalia:

When Islamic clerics captured Somalia's capital Mogadishu last month, it seemed to offer some hope for peace in the war-torn Horn of Africa country. Somalia has had no central government for 15 years, and the country was a patchwork of fiefdoms run by murderous warlords. The rise of the Islamic Courts Union worried the U.S., which says the group has ties to Al-Qaeda and harbors known terrorists, but others saw opportunity: perhaps the Islamists could finally end the bloodshed and bring a functioning government to Somalia.

Six weeks on and those hopes are disintegrating quickly. Hardliners within the Islamic Courts Union have pushed aside moderates and appointed as their head a man the U.S. suspects of collaborating with al-Qaeda. Mogadishu locals, who had cheered the demise of the warlords, began to fret when their new Islamic leaders cracked down much as the Taliban did in its................
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get the rest of the situation here:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1218273,00.html



The situation in the jihad lodged against the Sudan has been brewing for years with 2 million Sudanese dead already. Here is a review from 2002:

FAITH UNDER FIRE
Sudan jihad forces Islam
on Christians

Women refusing to convert gang-raped, mutilated, says relief worker

Posted: March 4, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Art Moore
(c) 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam, according to the head of an aid group who recently returned from the African nation.

The forced conversions are just one aspect of the Khartoum government's self-declared jihad on the mostly Christian and animist south, Dennis Bennett, executive director of Seattle-based Servant's Heart told WorldNetDaily.
Villagers in several areas of the northeast Upper Nile region say that when women are captured by government forces they are asked: "Are you Christian or Muslim?"

Women who answer "Muslim" are set free, but typically soldiers gang-rape those who answer "Christian" then cut off their breasts and leave them to die as an example for others.

Bennett says these stories are corroborated by witnesses from several tribes in the region. Upon returning to the U.S., he wrote a letter to influential members of Congress and activists.

"After witnessing once again the situation on the ground there," Bennett wrote, "I must ask 'How long will the United States government allow the Government of Sudan to continue its jihad against the Black African Christians of South Sudan?'"
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26672


Here is the situation as of today:

KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP)--Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir said Sudan has taken inspiration from Hezbollah and would battle a proposed international peacekeeping force in the Darfur region, the state news agency reported Tuesday.

The statements by al-Bashir appeared to strengthen Sudan's resolve to resist a possible U.N.-backed force to end the bloodshed and ongoing refugee crisis.

More than 200,000 people have been killed in the western region since 2003, when ethnic African tribes revolted against the Arab-led Khartoum government.

"We are determined to defeat any forces entering the country just as Hezbollah has defeated the Israeli forces," the official Sudanese News Agency quoted al-Bashir as telling an armed forces gathering Monday.

Last week, the U.S. repeated its demand for deployment of a strong and mobile U.N. peacekeeping force in Darfur by Oct. 1. The top U.N. humanitarian official, Jan Egelund, said the situation is "going from real bad to catastrophic" after attempts to enforce a peace deal unleashed more fighting.

"We are opposed to the deployment (in Darfur) of American, British or other forces imposed by the Security Council," al-Bashir said.

Tuesday August 15th, 2006
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http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dynamic/News.php?NewsID=42104&lang=fra&NewsRubrique=2
 
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Mycroft said:
You're making a similar mistake to what Larsen made, in thinking that "founded on" means the rule will be exactly reproduced in our modern laws. Nobody is claiming that.
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You're making a jump to conclusion based on NOTHING that the USA laws are founded on the 10 commandments. The laws you cite aren't even close to resembling the commandments you've paired them with.
 
thaiboxerken said:
And? I thought we were talking about laws our country was founded upon. That would mean FEDERAL laws, not state laws.
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Nobody said anything about Federal laws ... the term was "secular" laws.
They may be Federal, state or local. They may've existed since our country was founded. They may exist today.
 
No, since we're talking about laws our COUNTRY was founded on, this would mean FEDERAL laws.
 
You are narrowing the goal posts by asserting they must be federal laws.

This was not the premise. Nor is it reasonable to assume that any state or local lawmaker who passes a law against adultery or larceny or legislates that a motto such as In God we Trust be placed in local courtrooms or that swearing and blasphemy be banned on their streets and in their government buildings was not influenced to do so save for the fact they saw in in the ten c's. Yes, some of these laws may be unconstitutional but they ocurred and still occur. Obeying the Sabbath, for example, makes it illegal for some businesses to open on the sunday Sabbath or to sell and/or purchase alcohol on the sabbath.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Not at all, SG. The goal post was always set to the federal level.
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Not at all TBK ... because I set it and I said "much of secular law." I never said all laws and I never said Federal laws. In fact prior to 1776 there was no Federal law in the U.S.

So the goal posts were not set at the Federal level. I used the more general term of "secular" law to differentiate them from biblical or other religious "law."
 
Much of secular law? That would be most of the entire world. Are you actually claiming that most laws in the entire world are based on the 10 commandments?
 
thaiboxerken said:
Much of secular law? That would be most of the entire world. Are you actually claiming that most laws in the entire world are based on the 10 commandments?
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Not in context but it doesn't matter. Here is the
early context:

Well, I'd say that America has no state religion, and does not punish others for following a different belief (or no belief). That's the concept behind Freedom of Religion, and it has little to do with the actual majority religion.

To do a good comparison, compare Christianity in America to Islam in a country is the majority in a country that actually officially has freedom of religion.
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Lonewolf – Post#19

Except that the freedom of religion in America came from a time when America was of predominately one religion (Christianity). In fact, many secular countries today come from countries that were highly Christian (a number of European nations come to mind). To me this shows that Christianity had the seeds within it to plant a world where freedom and tolerance are not idle concepts.
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WalktheLine – Post #20

Then Mephisto in Post#30 said:

A better comparison?

How about comparing which religions in the U.S. want their 10 Rules emblazoned on the walls of public buildings. How about comparing which religions are pushing for prayer in schools (you don't honestly think that a Jew, a Muslim or a Satanist will be welcome at the microphone when blessing the football team, do you?). How about comparing which religions are pushing that their beliefs on the origin of mankind be taught alongside science? How about abortion - which religions in the U.S. are dictating what rights a woman has with her own body? How about Stem Cell research - who is protesting that the sanctity of life extends to a single cell? Which religions are up in arms about taking a woman who had been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years off life support?

I'd rather just live in the U.S. when we regain our Bill of Rights which also provides us with freedom FROM religion.
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Then I said in Post#31, context U.S.:

All three major faiths - Christian, Jew and Muslin - embrace the ten commandments. Even if not god given these rules have formed the basis for much secular law.
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Which, of course, Larsen disagrees with. He disagrees that Jews, Moslems and Christians all embrace the 10 c’s.? His privilege.

And then was asked which secular law: not all secular law, not the whole world’s secular law but “much” American secular law. Not just federal law, secular law on any level.


So you need context. This has nothing to do with Federal laws alone. But some may be based on sentiments expressed in the 10 c’s such as the law which requires in god/trust motto on money and in court houses and public buildings …. along with the 10 c tablets themselves. These tablets, are up to today, still the subject of controversy and legal action.
They are not on display in the U.S. Supreme Court
because the court feels they have no relevance to our system of laws. The court also displays Mohammed in a frieze offering a book which may contain the commandments.

I am not disputing that. I am not disagreeing they should be removed. What I am saying is that it is patently obvious by their public display for over 200 years and the local and federal laws related to them, and there are 8 out of 10 which have existed at one time or another since this country was founded that they had an influence on:

laws which prohibit and/or punish:

1. murder, 2. larceny, 3. perjury, 4. age of legal consent, 5. adultery, 6.blasphemy, 7. sabbath closing or blue laws, and 8. laws honoring god and placing your faith in the deity such as in god we trust mottos.

This argument had nothing to do with their constitutionality, whether the laws in question pre-existed in other societies, whether previous laws (such as those given by Hammurabi or Solon the Athenian) existed or not, and/or whether federal or local.

If you don’t think so, fine.
 
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You've claimed most SECULAR law is based on the 10 commandments. The problem is that you haven't supported your claim with any reliable evidence or reasoning.
 
Please read all 156 posts in this thread and discuss this on the new thread you started. Where you get off coming in so late and ignoring the discussion up to now is inappropriate. I have no intention of patiently posting everything I already posted all over again. I think JREF has better things to do with its bandwith than play your juvenile games.

Example: Adultery Laws. I posted the Virginia prosecution on your new thread to the surprise of other posters there who were not aware of these laws.

If you don't feel the evidence of the existence of such laws is reliable that's your privilege.
 
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Feel free to present your case in the appropriate thread. So far, you've failed to in this thread. I've read your posts, and they don't do your position any justice.
 
CFLarsen said:
Rubbish. The problem is Steve's. He is the one who listed the countries.
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The logical contradiction is Zawahiri’s, not Steve’s. You are being irrational by trying to make it Steve’s.

CFLarsen said:
Rubbish. If they had a foundation in the 10 Commandments, then you have to be able to show a direct reference that it was because of the 10 Commandments.
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That makes no sense. Many things can be said to be “founded” in what came before it without being exact copies. Modern democracy, for example, can be said to be “founded” in ancient Greek civilization, but modern society is still very different. It would be irrational to demand someone “prove” it modern laws that are identical to ancient Greek laws.

“Foundation” in this sense means beginning. Before the law we have now, there were other laws. Our laws are not an exact copy of those other laws, but there is a progression of thought that stretches back into time. American law springs from English law, which traces its roots back to the Middle Ages, and before to the Romans. All of this was heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, which draws heavily from the ancient Hebrews and their Ten Commandments.

“Founded” doesn’t mean “copied.”

CFLarsen said:
Otherwise, you will have to admit that these three laws were simply following precedence from all other civilizations.
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So? That doesn’t erase the influence of the Ten Commandments and our Judeo-Christian heritage.

CFLarsen said:
You can't hang that on the 10 Commandments, no matter how much you try.
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You can’t erase the Church from our culture, no matter how hard you try.
 
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