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Advanced Chiropractic Technology

Ipecac

Graduate Poster
Ipecac
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
1,846
More fun from my home town newspaper . . .

"Interesting" article about advancements in medical technology. Bizarrely, the main focus is on a new device used by chiropractors. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is potentially helpful or just high tech snake oil?

New Technology

Sounds fishy to me.
 
Ipecac said:
More fun from my home town newspaper . . .

"Interesting" article about advancements in medical technology. Bizarrely, the main focus is on a new device used by chiropractors. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is potentially helpful or just high tech snake oil?

New Technology

Sounds fishy to me.
Click to expand...

To me as well. Two centuries ao it was magnets and static electricity, a century ago, it was snake oil and machines with flashing lights, today it's magnets (we never learn) and machines with a LOT of flashing lights.

I go through Grand Central in Manhattan every week or so and the scientologists are given "stress tests" with some sort of machine.

IIR
 
I doesn't matter if it's valid technology or not. Chiros use x-ray machines which are valid technology. They just use them to justify "adjustments" which aren't. This doo-dah is being used to justify chiropractic adjustments. QED.

Rolfe.
 
It's a piece-o-crap. A chiro used something similar on me once when he was testing my "subluxations." Doesn't do a dang thing except maybe show where the muscles are tightened a bit. But that really doesn't doesn't have anything to do with the spine. Or does it?
 
First clue: neither of these sites has an explanation about what this thing is or what it actually does.

http://www.pro-adjuster.us/

http://www.pro-adjuster.com/#

The supposed FDA approval which amounts to a meaningless label cites sigma instruments as the manufacturer.

http://www.sigma-instruments.com/

There's an even foggier description of what ever this thing is on their site.

It just adds to my already firmly established opinion of chiropractors.... :bs:

Other options to check this claim are to go to the FDA site and look it up and go to the NASA site and see what the 'technology' is they are claiming to be using in the device. I don't need to go any further, myself.
 
Ok, I've been dying to ask this for some time, but just haven't gotten around to it.
Why exactly do chiropractors get a bad rap here?
Let me explain. I used to have devastating migraines, everyday. They just started one day and got worse. For months I lived with the pain. I went to my family doctor. MRIs were ordered along with other tests. No one could figure it out. In the meantime, the pain was awful, and pain pills wouldn't touch it. I was finally told by the docs that some people just have to learn 'to live w/ pain.' This was unacceptable to me. In an act of desperation, I went to a chiropractor, who made an adjustment in my neck. The pain disapeared. Instantly. No more problems after months of the stuff, and thousands of dollars worth of tests and medications. I go maybe once or twice a year now when I can feel the headaches starting to come on again. I have no idea what a subluxation is, my chiro has never talked about it. He said that I had some pinched nerves that were causing my pain.
So, the moral of the story is that for 20 bucks and ten minutes of my time at a chiropractor, I'm pain free. What's bad about that?

Also, I've always meant to ask Randi about his stance on chiropractors. In one commentary, he blasts them pretty good, but in another commentary where a man is talking about his wife who lost her bladder control because of MS (I think) but then regained it once her hips audibly 'snapped' back into place, he goes on to say that people shouldn't think that what happened to her was anything out of the realm of nature and the way our bodies fit together. So does adjustment of our bones work to improve certain conditions, or no? It just seemed an odd turnabout.
 
There are other neck related causes of migraine besides pinched nerves. If you feel around to the back of your head, there are two bony bumps, one on either side. Underneath those bony bumps are muscles. Next time you get a headache, feel those muscles. If it hurts to the touch, that's your problem, not a pinched nerve. The muscle is in spasm. Some chronic migraine sufferers get relief from the headaches by having that muscle paralyzed via Botox.

Some migraine sufferers (including me, I've learned) are teeth clenchers. Which causes the scalp muscles to go into spasm. For only $625 there is a small device that is worn in the mouth that keeps one from clenching their teeth.

:th: to Barbrae for telling me about it.

BTW, I believe there is some early evidence that chiropractic adjustments of the neck can have serious, even deadly consequences.
 
I've thought about sending in a letter to the editor, but I'm just not qualified to speak about chiropractic. Why is it that no local doctor ever appears to set the paper straight? That would be refreshing.
 
This device is very suspicious. One thing you'll notice that differentiates medicine from chiropractic is that new technology in medicine starts with peer reviewed papers before manufacturers kick in and start mass producing it and marketing it.

MRI for example was spelled out in hundreds of peer reviewed sceintific publications BEFORE the first commercial scanner was ever conceived and built.

Note that with chiropractic thats not the case. I can build some sham device in my garage, market it and sell it immediately and chiros will flock to it with no scientific questioning.

The manufacturer website says that a piezoelectric device sends "mild percussive impulses" into the vertebrae and the resulting "wave" is used to calculate vertebral mobility and "resonance."

1) How are they defining and using the word "resonance"

2) What mathematical algorithm are they using and where is the literature demonstrating that its an accurate way to measure "resonance" and/or "mobility"

These questions are just the beginning. After that you'd have to address whether there is any real evidence that spinal adjustment "corrects" mobility problems, and whether those mobility parameters are connected to disease conditions.

The language they use is extremely sloppy and vague, probably on purpose. I'd like to talk to one of their chief "engineers" and ask these questions. I have a strong suspicion he wouldnt be able to discuss these things at all. He'd probably just spout off the same thing on the website and not be able to talk about it in detail because he himself doesnt understand basic science and engineering. This is all assuming a university-trained engineer/scientist was even associated with this device at all.

Its scary how the FDA doesnt regulate these devices. I had no idea that you could just build some random machine and then use it on people like that with no "proof of concept" needed.
 
Lisa Simpson said:


BTW, I believe there is some early evidence that chiropractic adjustments of the neck can have serious, even deadly consequences.
Click to expand...

Go to Peter Bowditch's site, www.ratbags.com. He has some chiropractor horror stories, including one death and one quadraplegia.

Also, if Chiropractor's stuck to massage, which helps a lot of people, there wouldn't be any problem but since they are very expensive masseuses (sp?) they need all the herbal therapies, x-rays (for which they are usually reimbursed), and "adjustments" and so on to make a buck.

Also, replying to another post, I have been to the "John" a number of times and it is not in Baltimore:D

IIR
 
Ipecac said:
I've thought about sending in a letter to the editor, but I'm just not qualified to speak about chiropractic. Why is it that no local doctor ever appears to set the paper straight? That would be refreshing.
Click to expand...

Because the AMA is legally barred from dissing chiropracty.
 
In 1987, a federal judge ruled that the AMA had engaged in an organized illegal conspiracy to "eliminate" chiropractic. Unfortunate that it didnt work. :D

Seriously, doctors and the AMA can criticize chiropractic. When Florida State University tried to start a new chiropractic school (first public school/taxpayer supported chiro school in the USA) there were many doctors affiliated with FSU that spoke out against chiro quackery. Fortunately the ruling body that controls universities in Florida killed the chiro school.

Part of the problem is fear of lawsuits. You can sue for anything these days. If a doc went on a public campaign against this device, it wouldnt surprise me at all if the company sued him for defamation or whatever.

Another thing is that I think many docs dont take enough time to pay attention whats going on in other areas of medicine that dont pertain directly to them. They arent really aware of what chiros are claiming or what fancy machines they have. We need to take a more active role here, no doubt.

I'm still wondering how this device got FDA approved. FDA approval must not be that hard to get. Perhaps they just check to make sure the device doesnt kill somebody, but other than that they dont check to see if its truly effective or that the concept behind it is sound.

I wonder if I could make some fancy "subluxation" machine. I could make a lot of dollars and FDA approval is a rubber stamp as long as I could show it doesnt kill people then it doesnt matter what the machine actually does or how it works.
 
HopkinsMedStudent said:
I'm still wondering how this device got FDA approved. FDA approval must not be that hard to get. Perhaps they just check to make sure the device doesnt kill somebody, but other than that they dont check to see if its truly effective or that the concept behind it is sound.
Click to expand...
I think you're pretty much on the nail there. Also, there is (or there is in the UK anyway) a class of approved healthcare "device" which is just things like bandages and sticking-plaster. You can get almost anything reistered under this category.

Rolfe.
 
I tried to find something on this device on the FDA site and as near as I can come is it is a meaningless approval

Class I – These devices present minimal potential for harm to the user and are often simpler in design than Class II or Class III devices. Examples include enema kits and elastic bandages. 47% of medical devices fall under this category and 95% of these are exempt from the regulatory process.

Here's the stuff from the supposed FDA registration info:
Device name: PRO ADJUSTER.ACUWAVE.S.M.A.R.T.ADJUSTER.
Type: ADJUSTING OR JOINT MOBILIZATION INSTRUMENT
MANIPULATOR.PLUNGER-LIKE JOINT
Device code: LXM
Category: Physical Medicine
Manufacturer: SIGMA INSTRUMENTS.INC.
9039899
2531782

Maybe someone else can find something more on the FDA site.

As to why I might be ragging on chiropractors? The science behind it is nonsense. There is evidence of placebo effect and a bit more I don't have time to get into but I'm not impressed. Physically manipulating your spine cannot be shown to do anything. Chiropractors cannot tell if the patient was manipulated an hour earlier or never.

And there is a risk of tearing the vertebral artery which is where you end up a quadriplegic. I have seen a patient who came into the hospital with this injury and he was permanently injured.

How this practice of quackery has become accepted as mainstream med is beyond me.

Quackwatch thinks some of them are OK. Again, I'm not impressed.
 
The GM said:
Ok, I've been dying to ask this for some time, but just haven't gotten around to it.
Why exactly do chiropractors get a bad rap here?
Click to expand...

The situation is complex and I don't fully understand it, but let us contrast it with homeopathy: the chiropracters do something which can have real effects on the body.

At the rational end of the spectrum are people who simply manipulate backs to relieve spinal pain. They may base their theory on a flawed premise of "subluxations" but they are manipulating the spine for spinal pain and if the patient reports relief it may be true. Problems of ever performing a blinded study for a physical modality such as this limit the ability to compare it with other physical therapies.

At the irrational end of the spectrum are people who believe that spinal "subluxations" underlie any number of medical diseases and pull peoples spines about in a quixotic faith that they are helping.

I don't know the percentages, but the problem is that if you didn't want to swallow the whole chiropractic nonsense then why did you get trained as one instead of as a physiotherapist or sports medicine specialist? Thus "chiropracter" is rather debased currency even at the semi-rational end of the spectrum.

Here's a taster of the problems involved;

Chirobase

Practitioners who limit their practices to analyzing the spine and correcting subluxations are called "straight" chiropractors. Those who believe that they are affecting Palmer's biotheological "Innate Life Force" are often called "superstraights." The straights label chiropractors who do more than SMT "mixers," because they mix other modalities. These various chiropractic factions have been at odds with each other throughout nearly all of chiropractic's existence. Each claims to be the true chiropractors and labels the others as cultists or "pseudomedical doctors." The strife between these factions has been fought out in courts and state legislatures and remains unresolved to this day.
Click to expand...

Edited to add this quote to show the problem of being a rational chiropracter;

The dilemma reformers face is that chiropractors do not perform any service or deal with any condition not covered by some other health profession. State laws that enable them to practice either specifically mention the subluxation theory or describe it as the basis for chiropractic as an entity. Renouncing chiropractic's theoretical basis would eliminate its justification for existing as a separate profession.
Click to expand...
 
The GM said:
Why exactly do chiropractors get a bad rap here?
Click to expand...
This is because some chiropractors, especially in the U.S. and Canada have woo-woo practice and theory.

In Denmark where I live, you are hard-pressed to find a chiro who uses the word 'subluxation'. In fact, the Danish chiros have discussed changing their name in order to distnace themselves from the quacks, but chiropratics (chiropractice?) is too good a brand here. If they did change their name, they would probably have difficulty explaining why they are not physiotherapists.

I have story like yours: I was healed "miraculously" with a single treatment from a neck-pain that was threatening to ruin a holiday. Some other problems have been cleared also, but later ailments like arthritis have not been healed at all, despite several treatments.
 
steenkh said:
chiropratics (chiropractice?) is too good a brand here. If they did change their name, they would probably have difficulty explaining why they are not physiotherapists.
Click to expand...
Is there actually a sensible answer to that?

Rolfe.
 
Well this whole idea of certain chiro practices that supposedly have left the nonsensical basis for their practices behind was the part I referred to as not wanting to get into. I've been having a long discourse on this on another forum and totally disagree with Dr Barrett, (Quackwatch) about this.

One thing I found was if you look at any available website from any chiropractic college, they all still have the standard courses in subluxations and in the phony theory that all health can be fixed if you do these stupid maneuvers. So until they change their education system I think the idea a 'real' practice has emerged from a phony one is BS.

So what about the chiro colleges in Denmark, steenkh?
 
For that machine: accuracy rates are astounding if you tell the chiro beforehand where it hurts. Of course, if you fib a bit, for some reason, the pain is pinpointed at where you said it hurt, instead of where it really does.

Or maybe that other guy didn't use the machine correctly...
 
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