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About this abiogenesis stuff...

elliotfc said:


You have chosen the form in which to practice and understand (empiricism). There is nothing wrong with empiricism (of course). And given the choice, you proceed to inquire and study and think and learn. This makes science a philosophy. Philosophy is the love of knowlege, right? And science isn't a form of philosophy?


By invoking Popper, you can quite rightly argue that science is THE RESULT OF PHILOSOPHY.

It is, however, not philosophy, as it deals in the empirical, falsifiable, and testable.

Philosophy need not be any of those, and no philosophy, including parts of Popper's that created the scientific process, remains entirely in the scientific realm.

Science is a PRODUCT of philosophy, not a philosophy, except perhaps in a very limited, simple way, hardly befitting the word. (That does not, by the way, suggest that I think there is a problem with science.)

I respect that you may think that science is the only worthwhile branch of philosophy, and that all other branches may be less than insignificant.
-Elliot
Please do not presume what I think. What you have written is placing a position I do not hold at my feet. This is, strictly speaking, the "straw man" fallacy, although you've been polite so far and not burnt your straw man.

As you may notice, I do not regard science as a branch of philosophy, rather a product of a particular kind of philosopy, related to materialism, empiricism, and so on.

Your position as to what I regard as insignificant is incorrect, however it's not a simple or short discussion.
 
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Silicon said:



John Locke, founder of British empericism. Essay Concerning Human Understanding, published in 1690


Book 4: Chapter 17:


20. II. Argumentum ad ignorantiam. Secondly, Another way that men ordinarily use to drive others and force them to submit to their judgments, and receive their opinion in debate, is to
require the adversary to admit what they allege as a proof, or to assign a better. And this I call argumentum ad ignorantiam.

But did he in fact coin the phrase? I can't believe that's the first time the idea was illuminated.
 
hammegk said:


As to abiogenesis, the current answer is "we have no clue". I do find it interesting that apparently it was a one-of event on earth.


Actually, we have a great many clues. It's not a totally solved question, but the RNA world model has been quite useful in terms of a whole field of study.

Those clues are yielding results.

And I don't think it was a unique event. Different parts of the process may have happened zillions of times. But the last time, it stuck, and we haven't seen *the entire process* repeated since. Parts of it happen all the time, though.

Remember, we aren't talking about a bunch of chemicals swirling in a pool and then ZAP, bacteria. We're talking about millions and millions of years of slow, incrimental change, step by tiny step, from simple non-living things to simple living things. At one end of the scale you have things that very certainly aren't alive, and on the other end you have things that absolutely are alive. In the middle (millions of years of middle!), you get a foggy, "well, it MIGHT be alive, in some aspects".


Why hasn't it happened again? Well, let's look at the question from the point of view of competition. Surely the most fit organism to survive would change the environment to the point where competing proto-organisms couldn't survive.

Things that eat rna, for example. Those would be able to populate the earth, and make sure that nothing got too far along behind it to compete!.


There are a lot (A LOT) of those microorganisms today, which eat amino acids (like RNA). So that's why the process hasn't repeated. Photoheterotrophs were among the very first life on earth, and they devour amino acids.

So nothing new gets started!
 
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jj said:


But did he in fact coin the phrase? I can't believe that's the first time the idea was illuminated.

Without a time machine, I guess we'll never TRUELY know!

;)


But yeah, he's credited with giving us that name for that argument. I'm sure someone thought of it sooner, but they just called it "Argument from poopy-head" and it didn't catch on.
 
Silicon said:



Actually, we have a great many clues. ..

clue
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of clew
Date: 1596
: something that guides through an intricate procedure or maze of difficulties; specifically : a piece of evidence that leads one toward the solution of a problem

What you have are a great many SWAGs (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses). I'd say you can't even define the problem, that being "what is life?".
 
And I can see that you can't define your problem. Which is, "why is my head up my ...


HEY KIDS!!!


Pardon me for responding to your post, Hammegk, I thought you wanted to discuss the issue, rather than hide behind your own (really crappy, ancient, useless) pseudo-philosophy.

"What is life?" Please. Next you'll be wanting a re-evaluation of "reality".

I shant ever respond to your posts again.
 
Silicon said:
..
"What is life?" Please. Next you'll be wanting a re-evaluation of "reality".

Just one point; this is the R & P Forum. And no, I don't see or hear you defining "life", not even the Terran variety.


I shant ever respond to your posts again.

Your choice. Did you actually think your sophomoric thoughts on abiogenesis had merit?
 
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swstephe said:
The term "ignorance" isn't meant to be insulting. It means an argument can not be made from *our* ignorance about a certain truth. You don't know, I don't know, so you can't say that something is true when nobody knows. You can only use it to prove that nobody knows and move onto the next premise. There are lots of names for different fallacies, some are meant to be easy to remember, (it is also called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" and "shifting the burden").

Check out this for a pretty exhaustive list.
Awesome list, I've seen so many of these arguements before in reality, now I have something to call them. Of course, I've known some people that are a bit reluctant to accept that they have committed a logical fallacy and they usually defend themselves with "How do you know?" (Which is an arguement from ignorance actually :D...)
 

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