Abortion

[JamesDillon]

Whether we consider a fetus a human life or not only matters if we are in a society that considers human life sacrosanct. It is my contention that we, as a society, do not...

So we do not consider all human life to be sacrosanct...

Respect for human life is NOT the name of this game...

Meg

Well said, Meg. That's the distinction that many of us have been trying to get at here. While most of the examples you offered are negative or distasteful aspects of society, I think that a good argument can be made that not every human life should be viewed as sacred, nor the right to life absolute in all cases. Fetuses are the best example of this; while they are biologically human, I see no reason to view their lives as legally or morally equivalent to that of an adult human being. A reasonable argument can be made for the other side, though, and I think this issue is the most potentially fruitful ground for compromise or mutual understanding.

 

[Abbyas]

Chris,

My point was this. Yes, I can see how if you wanted a child and couldn't convince her to carry the baby, it might be frustrating. But the decision is mine for this reason: carrying a baby causes you no physical changes, no throwing up, no organs smashed, no extreme emotional changes, no risk of damage to your reproductive organs, diabetes, etc, etc. This is why the decision is mine. I shouldn't be forced to go through that unless I want to.

It always frustrates me when I hear people say the phrase "abortion for convenience" because a pregnancy is not merely inconvenient.

 

[delphi_ote]

To recap:

Close to half of the women in abortion clinics are there because of lack of contraception, or that contraception failed.

The vast majority of women who choose abortion do so because of poverty and lack of support for them to raise the child, - financially, emotionally, and/or physically.

If you want to drastically cut the amount of abortions performed each year, fix the above two problems.

Wow. Nice!

 

[chris epic]

Respect for human life is NOT the name of this game.

Meg

I totally agree with you- I realize this, I've known this. I'm not sure what your intentions were with your post, but I think its a very poor justification (I'm not saying you are poorly justifying, I'm saying our country is) That's why we need to talk about this stuff so things can change, right?

 

[chris epic]

Ok. I guess I'm done for now. Feel free to go back to arguing over the genetic makeup of fetuses now.

I know I never said on this thread that I had anything against women exercizing their legal right to choose- not once, andf I don't think very many people on here, if any did either. However, I have a solution for some, if not more than some of the reasons up top- a willing father. If he wanted to assume responsibility for the child, he could take the child off of her hands- but unfortunately, if a father wanted that, he couldn't do anything about it.

 

[chris epic]

Chris,

My point was this. Yes, I can see how if you wanted a child and couldn't convince her to carry the baby, it might be frustrating. But the decision is mine for this reason: carrying a baby causes you no physical changes, no throwing up, no organs smashed, no extreme emotional changes, no risk of damage to your reproductive organs, diabetes, etc, etc. This is why the decision is mine. I shouldn't be forced to go through that unless I want to.

It always frustrates me when I hear people say the phrase "abortion for convenience" because a pregnancy is not merely inconvenient.

Pregnancy is not inconvenience, generally, but sometimes it is and sometimes that inconvenience is met with abortion. As far as me feeling "frustrated" that's where we are completely misunderstood- its alot more than frustrating, its spirit shattering- as though I lost a child and I was comepletely powerless over that. The feelings go way beyond "frustration". Hey, this might be petty but male preganancy "sympathy pains" are legitimate, psychological, but legitimate- yeah, guys going through this get moring sickness, too. And no emotional changes? THEY'RE GOING TO BE A FATHER! No emotional changes? Are guys just completely apathetic while their spouses or lovers are pregnat with their children? I'll agree with you that guys don't have a problem when their partners abort their potential-children- but thats only in the case where the father doesn't want anything to do with "it" either. What about when a father DOES? And nobody tell me "tough" because that's just a nonsense response.

 

[Abbyas]

Pregnancy is not inconvenience, generally, but sometimes it is and sometimes that inconvenience is met with abortion.

Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that. Did you mean that women generally do want to be pregnant, so it's not inconvenient? Not sure I'm reading you right.

I meant that pregnancy is always more than an inconvenience. Like chronic fatigue syndrome is more than an inconvenience.

And yes, there are sympathy pains, but I really don't think we can equate them with what the mother goes through. I think we can agree that the risks and the damage is much, much greater. I'd love to see some stats on how many men go through morning sickness vs. how many women do.

Also, when I was saying "emotionally", I was talking bio-chemical/hormonal reactions. True, having a baby is a huge emotional weight on a dad, but he doesn't go through the hormonal stuff that a women does, and he has options that she doesn't (i.e. medications).

And if someone (the father) wants the baby, I could easily see how an abortion could be likened to a miscarriage and includes all the grief that goes along with that. However, I don't think that a man's right to avoid that grief outweighs a woman's right to not have to go through the hardships of a pregnancy.

 

[Abbyas]

I know I never said on this thread that I had anything against women exercizing their legal right to choose- not once, andf I don't think very many people on here, if any did either. However, I have a solution for some, if not more than some of the reasons up top- a willing father. If he wanted to assume responsibility for the child, he could take the child off of her hands- but unfortunately, if a father wanted that, he couldn't do anything about it.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you're thoughts on legal abortion.

The willing father solves the problem of an unwanted child, but what about an unwanted pregnancy?

 

[jj]

...
We kill people by ignoring their suffering.

Respect for human life is NOT the name of this game.

Meg

I personally find these two statements very interesting, being as they were in adjacent paragraphs.

What is the life of an unwanted child? I didn't say "what should it be", I said "what is it".

Yes, that's ugly, and I don't like the answer, either.

 

[JM85]

I'm still not able to decide. I think both sides make valid points, and I'm not entirely sure if I agree with the abortion procedure or not but I don't think abortion should be illegal because I wouldn't want kids killing themselves with a hanger while trying to perform the abortion themselves or any unqualified person performing an abortion. Hopefully one day there will be a compromise on the abortion issue. Probably won't happen in any of our lifetimes though.

 

[meg]

I have a question for those of you that are anti-abortion.

Pretend you or your wife is pregnant.

Everything seems normal and fine until somewhere around the 5th month. At the routine sonogram, doctors see something quite troubling. There are strange deposits on the brain and many organs. The liver and spleen are enlarged. The head and brain are too small.

Your fetus has some serious problems. It has been infected by a virus.

Here is what they tell you:

If your child lives to be born it will probably be severely retarded.
It will likely by deaf. Even if it is born not deaf, there is a good chance it will become deaf later.
It will also likely be blind.

This child will probably never be able to walk or talk or feed itself.
It will be prone to many serious medical problems, like pneumonia, liver disease, microcephaly (a problem where the head is smaller than normal because the brain stops growing) and numerous others.
It may be subject to seizures.

There is no cure for this disease. Many of the problems this child has might just get worse as it gets older.

The damage apparent of this fetus is such that they tell you it probably will need to spend a great deal of its early life in ICU. It will be prone to many many infections during its life and will go to hospital often. It will require round the clock care for most of its life. It will need alot of prescription medications for the rest of its life.

You might want to consider institutionalizing the child, because the two of you will probably not be able to care for this child yourselves.

You also have your other children (2 and 4yrs old) to think about.

What would you do?

Meg

 

[chris epic]

Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that.

I'm saying that, yes, sometimes abortion is the proceedure used to aleviate a pregnancy if the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the mother's life. i.e. because it would interfere with her career, i.e., they just flat out don't want a kid right now,

 

[chris epic]

The willing father solves the problem of an unwanted child, but what about an unwanted pregnancy?

It WOULD solve that, too- but unfortunately....no, tragically, a father can't stop a woman from terminting the pregnancy of their human/potential person/child- even if he wants his child, even if he wants to protect his child.

 

[Abbyas]

It WOULD solve that, too- but unfortunately....no, tragically, a father can't stop a woman from terminting the pregnancy of their human/potential person/child- even if he wants his child, even if he wants to protect his child.

How would that solve it? You can't be pregnant for me.

 

[Abbyas]

I'm saying that, yes, sometimes abortion is the proceedure used to aleviate a pregnancy if the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the mother's life. i.e. because it would interfere with her career, i.e., they just flat out don't want a kid right now,

Right, and I'm saying it's more than that. If it was just a matter of them not wanting a kid, then they could give it up for adoption. But they don't want to go through a pregnancy and everything that goes with that in order to produce a child that they would give up. I applaud those that do give children up for adoption, but that's a generosity (going through the pregnancy not just giving up the kid) that we can't demand from someone. I wouldn't want to do it.

The pregnancy itself is not merely an inconvenience. It is much more than that.

 

[chris epic]

How would that solve it? You can't be pregnant for me.

if she wants to terminate the pregnancy because she doesn't want to take care of the child, or can't take care of the child she could give the child to the biological father if he wanted to take care of that child.

 

[chris epic]

Right, and I'm saying it's more than that. If it was just a matter of them not wanting a kid, then they could give it up for adoption. But they don't want to go through a pregnancy and everything that goes with that in order to produce a child that they would give up. I applaud those that do give children up for adoption, but that's a generosity (going through the pregnancy not just giving up the kid) that we can't demand from someone. I wouldn't want to do it.

The pregnancy itself is not merely an inconvenience. It is much more than that.

Again, I'm not defining abortions as a result of inconvenience, I'm defining a specific reason, out of many reasons, abortions happen- one of which is "inconvenience." I would rather be "inconvenienced" with the burden of raising my child than I would being restricted from protecting my child. I'm sorry but if adoption was chosen over abortion in the event of an inconvenient pregnancy, there would be far less abortions.

 

[chris epic]

Abbyas

74% said that having a baby would dramatically interfere with her work, education, or ability to care for her other dependents

73% said she could not afford a baby right now

Nearly 40% said she was finished having children

Nearly 33% said she was not ready to have a child.

13% cited problems affecting the health of the fetus.

12% cited problems affecting their own health.

Most women (89%) cited two or more reasons. 72% cited three or more.

Let's look at some more info.

The majority (59%) of women getting abortions already has one or more children.

Abbyas- I'm going to reference Meg's statistics. From what I see, and I hope I'm not reading it wrong or making a hasty generalization- but these facts look like pretty concise definitions of an inconvenient pregnancy- THE MAJORITY. Only a small percentage cites physical health reasons.

 

[meg]

"Most women (89%) cited two or more reasons. 72% cited three or more."

The average woman surveyed cited 3.7 reasons.

I think it's important to note that.

 

[Abbyas]

if she wants to terminate the pregnancy because she doesn't want to take care of the child, or can't take care of the child she could give the child to the biological father if he wanted to take care of that child.

Right, but i was asking about an unwanted pregnancy. What if she doesn't want to be pregnant?

Abbyas- I'm going to reference Meg's statistics. From what I see, and I hope I'm not reading it wrong or making a hasty generalization- but these facts look like pretty concise definitions of an inconvenient pregnancy- THE MAJORITY. Only a small percentage cites physical health reasons.

Meg's reply confirms my suspicions. If it were just a matter of an unwanted child, it's one thing. But ALL pregnancies affect the mother's health. Some more than others. Pregnancy itself is more than an inconvenience.