Abortion

[chris epic]

I keep trying to contribute to the "Roe v Wade for Men" thread discussing equal parental rights for fathers but people keep turing it into an abortion debate and that just keeps side stepping the real topic of Fathers' Rights so here ya go- here's a thread for abortion. Have at it. If you want to talk about father's rights go back to Roe v Wade for Men. Ciao

 

[Luke T.]

Okay. I'll spend my rant here.

A couple of people have said that pro-lifers want to enslave women. This has been chafing me ever since I heard it. Just burning away inside me. It has polarized me like never before.

First, I'd like to hear them say that to these women.


Or perhaps they need to read this.

The same poll showed that only 38 percent of American adults favor making abortion laws stricter, while 20 percent want them made less strict, and 39 percent favor retaining current laws. Fifty-three percent told Gallup they consider themselves ''pro-choice,'' while 42 percent said they are ''pro-life.''

Or this.

Of the 16 women in the South Dakota House and Senate, 11 voted in February for a bill that would ban all abortions in the state, unless it's necessary to save the mother's life.

That's a lot of women who are pro-life. That alone is enough to blow the "pro-lifers want to enslave women" argument clean out of the water.

Does anyone who thinks pro-lifers want to enslave women want to persist in their analogy and call these pro-life women "Uncle Toms" or "house ni**ers"?

Go ahead, cut your own throat.

But let's play with this stupidity a little more.

During the time of slavery in America, there was a vocal minority fighting to have a group of people recognized as human beings entitled to human rights. Abolitionists. They were opposed by those who claimed blacks aren't like us.

"Hell, boy, you can tell just by looking at them they aren't like us. Therefore, they aren't human."

"You don't want to own slaves, fine, but don't tell me what I can and can't do with my property!"

They must be white to be human; they must be "viable outside the mother's body" to be human.

Course, that eliminates everyone in a coma as human, too.

They have to look human to be human. Blacks don't look human, fetuses are just blobs of tissue. It's so much easier to kill them if they aren't recognized as human.


See how much fun equating abortion to slavery can be?

Like it or not, abortion isn't about slavery. Anyone who says it is comes across as a complete idiot.

Rant done. Fever gone. Feel better now.

 

[Luke T.]

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

 

[HarryKeogh]

My view on abortion in one concise paragraph:

When does a human become a human? What separates us from an embryo or a fetus? It's not when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg. It's not when you can see recognizable body parts in a sonogram. It's the ability to think. During those first two trimesters the brain is barely developed, certainly not enough to allow thinking as we think of it. Therefore I have no problem with abortion in the first two trimesters. In the case of risk to the woman's health I am in favor of allowing abortions in the third trimester. Why? The woman was here first...she's got dibs on living.

and as an aside...when I once presented this view to friends they objected..."but you could see the baby's hands!". True, but we could also see Terry Schiavo's hands. She was fully developed but all of us who were discussing it were in favor of pulling the plug on her. Why? No brain activity.

 

[wunky]

I remember in elementary school that a classmate became pregnant, stupidity not rape. She did not want to keep it, the prospective father felt the same way. However, the parents of both felt differently. She did not have an abortion, had to go to a special school for teenagers with children, ran away from there. At that point we all lost track of her.
How different would her life be now if she had been allowed to have the abortion???
How come the mothers mental health/state never seems to come into play?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

My view on abortion in one concise paragraph:

When does a human become a human? What separates us from an embryo or a fetus? It's not when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg. It's not when you can see recognizable body parts in a sonogram. It's the ability to think. During those first two trimesters the brain is barely developed, certainly not enough to allow thinking as we think of it. Therefore I have no problem with abortion in the first two trimesters. In the case of risk to the woman's health I am in favor of allowing abortions in the third trimester. Why? The woman was here first...she's got dibs on living.

and as an aside...when I once presented this view to friends they objected..."but you could see the baby's hands!". True, but we could also see Terry Schiavo's hands. She was fully developed but all of us who were discussing it were in favor of pulling the plug on her. Why? No brain activity.

Ditto

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

How different would her life be now if she had been allowed to have the abortion???
How come the mothers mental health/state never seems to come into play?

Because Baby Jeebus made that precious fetus, so it is automatically more important than the mother or her life.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

My view on abortion in one concise paragraph:

When does a human become a human? What separates us from an embryo or a fetus? It's not when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg. It's not when you can see recognizable body parts in a sonogram. It's the ability to think. During those first two trimesters the brain is barely developed, certainly not enough to allow thinking as we think of it. Therefore I have no problem with abortion in the first two trimesters. In the case of risk to the woman's health I am in favor of allowing abortions in the third trimester. Why? The woman was here first...she's got dibs on living.

and as an aside...when I once presented this view to friends they objected..."but you could see the baby's hands!". True, but we could also see Terry Schiavo's hands. She was fully developed but all of us who were discussing it were in favor of pulling the plug on her. Why? No brain activity.

Good one Harry. I agree.

I prefer the logic that we shouldn't be legislating women's bodies just because they have a parasite growing in them ....

Charlie (keep abortion legal) Monoxide

 

[JamesDillon]

Having addressed this issue in the Roe v. Wade thread, I'll paste my relevant comments here:

Whatever position you take on the abortion issue, I find it hard to fathom the idea that a fetus is anything but a member of the human species. You can argue about whether it is a "person," since that word has a somewhat more metaphysical connotation, but how can an organism with human DNA be anything but a member of the species homo sapiens?... Pro-choice advocates often hide behind the euphemism that a fetus is not a human being. As I noted above, I think that's a cop-out to shield one's conscience from the full implications of legalized abortion. Personally, I favor legalized abortion because I don't believe there's anything sacred about human life, and that society runs more smoothly if adults have some freedom of choice about whether or not to bring a child into the world. But I don't kid myself that abortion is anything other than the termination of a human life.

Luke, as you'll see if you've read the Roe v. Wade thread pages 6-9, not all pro-choice advocates would equate prohibition of abortion with slavery. I agree with you that such a comparison cannot legitimately be made in good faith.

 

[Mark]

Okay. I'll spend my rant here.

A couple of people have said that pro-lifers want to enslave women. This has been chafing me ever since I heard it. Just burning away inside me. It has polarized me like never before.

Chafe all you want. Most of the people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and sex education. What else do you need to know?

 

[Ed]

Having addressed this issue in the Roe v. Wade thread, I'll paste my relevant comments here:



Luke, as you'll see if you've read the Roe v. Wade thread pages 6-9, not all pro-choice advocates would equate prohibition of abortion with slavery. I agree with you that such a comparison cannot legitimately be made in good faith.

I tend to agree with you. I don't think that anyone is in a position better than I to understand the particular issues that I face vis a vis an unwanted pregnancy. I would dearly love to know how many anti abortion advocates have adopted.

 

[JamesDillon]

Chafe all you want. Most of the people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and sex education. What else do you need to know?

1. I'm not sure that this is statistically true, and would like to see some kind of evidence beyond the fact that "everyone knows it."
2. Even if it is true, how is anyone benefitted by the escalation of hyperbolic rhetoric that further polarizes the debate and makes objective discussion all the more difficult?

 

[toddjh]

Chafe all you want. Most of the people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control and sex education. What else do you need to know?

Certainly some pro-lifers are opposed to birth control and sex ed. I'll even grant that an awful lot of the vocal ones are, and some of them are in high places. But do you have anything to support your claim that most pro-lifers overall are opposed to these things?

 

[Mark]

Certainly some pro-lifers are opposed to birth control and sex ed. I'll even grant that an awful lot of the vocal ones are, and some of them are in high places. But do you have anything to support your claim that most pro-lifers overall are opposed to these things?

Only that the same names and groups keep popping up whenever someone wants to ban sex education or birth control programs.

 

[toddjh]

They have to look human to be human. Blacks don't look human, fetuses are just blobs of tissue. It's so much easier to kill them if they aren't recognized as human.

Luke, while I respect your position overall, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I think you're oversimplifying matters here. The issue with whether to consider a fetus as a person has nothing to do with what it looks like. It's about the fact that, in the first trimester at least, it has the brain of a lizard. Without invoking the idea of a soul, it's very difficult to make a case for the personhood of an early embryo/fetus without also arguing for vegetarianism.

No arguments later in pregnancy, though.

 

[pgwenthold]

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

Something doesn't make sense. 55% of Americans in 1999 believe abortion should be legal ONLY to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.

OTOH, 48% in 2001 consider themselves pro-choice. Since the point of the statement is that the pro-choice are dropping, we can assume the number was at least 48% in 1999,

So how can you have 55% insist on abortion ONLY in special cases, but have 52% not pro-choice? Are there seriously people who consider "abortion only in the case of mother health, rape, or incest" to be a pro-choice position? That is not pro-choice in the least.

Something doesn't make sense.

 

[toddjh]

Only that the same names and groups keep popping up whenever someone wants to ban sex education or birth control programs.

I'm not sure I understand. If the same names keep popping up, doesn't that support the "vocal minority" idea? If it were really widespread, you'd expect to see lots and lots of different names.

 

[Mark]

I'm not sure I understand. If the same names keep popping up, doesn't that support the "vocal minority" idea? If it were really widespread, you'd expect to see lots and lots of different names.

From conservative pharmacists refusing to dispense birth control pills to abstinence-only programs and anti-condom campaigns, access to contraception is facing tough challenges from the right. The strategy is similar to one that conservatives have used for abortion: Since overturning Roe vs. Wade looks unlikely in the near term, opponents have turned their sights on limiting access to the procedure. Now members of the religious and political right -- including the Bush administration -- are focusing on contraception, raising concern that they will succeed in curbing women's birth control choices and the ability to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/women_birth_control_salon_apr27_05.htm

 

[mumblethrax]

A couple of people have said that pro-lifers want to enslave women. This has been chafing me ever since I heard it. Just burning away inside me. It has polarized me like never before.

You probably shouldn't let it get to you too much. This accusation came from the same person who associates anyone who believes that the moral sphere might extend beyond the boundary of species with eugenicists (failing to realize, I assume, that he sweeps up several prominent skeptics and rationalists with this charge).

But that having been said, that some women oppose abortion is not a particularly good refutation of the charge; some slaves also supported slavery. It would be much better to point out that his assertion is not consistent with the common understanding of slavery, and that he's simply being a provocateur.

 

[toddjh]

Now members of the religious and political right -- including the Bush administration -- are focusing on contraception, raising concern that they will succeed in curbing women's birth control choices and the ability to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

I'm not disagreeing that there is an organized effort to limit access to contraception. I'm asking you to support your assertion that most pro-lifers support that effort.