Abortion Referendum

[aleCcowaN]

Abortion being logically and morally equivalent to murder is just one of those base, ideological difference that is always going to be isn't it?

(And again I don't mean that in a snarky or backhanded way.)

...with the magical figure of 12, 13 or 14 weeks being the boundary between murder and nothing

That comes to show the arbitrariness in everything that is ... arbitrary.

I wonder how come the law commits better with those ones who quickly want to wash their hands of pregnancy than with those responsible parents who come to learn at weak 13 their unborn child suffers Patau's.

 

[lionking]

...with the magical figure of 12, 13 or 14 weeks being the boundary between murder and nothing

That comes to show the arbitrariness in everything that is ... arbitrary.

I wonder how come the law commits better with those ones who quickly want to wash their hands of pregnancy than with those responsible parents who come to learn at weak 13 their unborn child suffers Patau's.

What law? Show me one which doesn’t allow for abortion after 13 weeks for foetuses with genetic and other serious abnormalities?

 

[Seismosaurus]

Well, SusanB, what about holding a pillow over unwanted babies' heads? Exactly, so why is it OK to despatch unwanted foetuses?

I know that probably looks like a good argument to you, but to me it comes across like... well if I said "What about cutting somebody's head off? No? Right, so why is it okay to eat ice cream?!"

It's okay in my eyes to despatch unwanted foetuses and not okay to kill infants because, to my eyes, aborting foetuses and killing infants are two fundamentally different actions.

I recognise that you don't think so, and that's fair enough. But comparing abortion to infanticide isn't going to convince anybody who isn't already convinced.

I met one woman in hospital who had had six abortions, and another who'd had four. What?

And I met a guy once who had exercised his freedom of speech hundreds of times! Can you imagine? Hundreds!

If you think abortion is a justifiable thing to do, then fifty abortions don't really alter that thinking more than one did.

What is needed is proper education about sexual health and the consequences of unprotected sex, including STD's and all sorts of nasties.

One of the oddest things about the anti-abortion viewpoint is that it's so frequently held by people who also oppose exactly those things.

 

[Strawberry]

Any country that bases part of its constitution on the bible is a virtual theocracy in my book,

Which part of Ireland's constitution is based on the Bible?

 

[lionking]

Which part of Ireland's constitution is based on the Bible?

The Atheist should know that the special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the constitution in 1972.

ETA Maybe he’s referring to the preamble, which talks about God and the Holy Trinity. Not really part of the Constitution.

 

[Roboramma]

It's worth note the abortion rate is actually in decline worldwide, so the idea that there's some sort of an abortion culture that's been enabled by legal abortions (people not worrying about the consequences of sex because they can always just have an abortion) is contrary to the facts.

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide

• As of 2010–2014, the global annual rate of abortion for all women of reproductive age (15–44) is estimated to be 35 per 1,000, which is a reduction from the 1990–1994 rate of 40 per 1,000.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Vixen

45 years ago, I was in hospital (in London) and there were two young women in the same room. From their conversation, I realised they were both there for their second or third abortions. Better every time to have a properly supervised procedure rather than one not properly supervised.

And, as has been said above, a foetus is not the same as a baby.

 

[MikeG]

Ireland has a very low maternal death rate despite having a ban on abortion...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2223.html

That might have something to do with women travelling to England or Scotland to have an abortion.

 

[3point14]

Don't you tell!

That doesn't mean the state has to bless any solution for that.

This leaves us with the 'don't be unlucky' rule.

Sensible enough to use protection? Unlucky enough to have it split? Have the poor fortune to be poor? Here, have a baby you don't want, I'm sure things will work out just fine...

 

[3point14]

Can I suggest that that be changed to "everyone but the mother"?

Not the father?

Who the hell's business is it other than hers?

He'll likely have to pay for it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

We certainly don't want the situation Vixen describes where people are having multiple abortions for trivial reasons. Its a difficult one.

But given that that is pretty much a strawman as no one is actually in favor of that why bring it up?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Which part of Ireland's constitution is based on the Bible?

You know something can be a theocracy without being based on the bible, that means being run by religion not based on a specific religious book. So this is another weird straw argument.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Vixen

45 years ago, I was in hospital (in London) and there were two young women in the same room. From their conversation, I realised they were both there for their second or third abortions. Better every time to have a properly supervised procedure rather than one not properly supervised.

And, as has been said above, a foetus is not the same as a baby.

Makes sense when it is the only contraception one can get. And given how little anti abortion activists like contraception it is expected that they increase the numbers of abortions. But that would be wrong and encoruage sinful sex and that must be prevented.

As any parent knows children are punishment for having sex that is what the bible clearly states.

 

[catsmate]

Ireland has a very low maternal death rate despite having a ban on abortion...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2223.html

It's still higher than much of Europe (such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Norway, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Italy et cetera). Additionally the MDE Ireland survey found the CSO figures (the ones most quoted) to be highly inaccurate and methodologically falwed.

..identified information on current or recent pregnancy was absent in many cases of indirect maternal deaths. These issues clearly impact on ascertainment of reliable maternal mortality data

 

[catsmate]

How appropriate that a virtual theocracy should hold a referendum on Towel Day.

I see we can add 'Ireland' to the (long) list of subjects you have little knowledge of.

 

[catsmate]

Because a foetus is not the same thing as a baby.

Indeed. One glaring example is that the existence of the baby doesn't endanger the mother's life.

 

[aleCcowaN]

What law? Show me one which doesn’t allow for abortion after 13 weeks for foetuses with genetic and other serious abnormalities?

Define "genetic and other serious abnormalities". And don't left out what exact role "inconsistent with life" plays in you definition.

You're probably under the wrong notion that 22 weeks used in Australia is the norm worldwide.

 

[aleCcowaN]

This leaves us with the 'don't be unlucky' rule.

Sensible enough to use protection? Unlucky enough to have it split? Have the poor fortune to be poor? Here, have a baby you don't want, I'm sure things will work out just fine...

No. If you like, have an abortion in a private institution, paid by the aborter or by charities you probably will contribute to -good for you!- and decriminalized so higher standards can be held and women can go quick and freely to the hospital the moment something goes wrong. It should be payable using a credit card too. It should also be payable in comfortable instalments (Have an induced miscarriage now and pay for it in 18 affordable monthly instalments at 0% interest!!!)

 

[dudalb]

I see we can add 'Ireland' to the (long) list of subjects you have little knowledge of.

And I would love to hear theatheist definition of a theocracy.

Ireland today is not the Ireland of 50 years ago. The RC Church has lost most of it's power.And the Republic never was a theocracy in the general meaning of the term anyway.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen

45 years ago, I was in hospital (in London) and there were two young women in the same room. From their conversation, I realised they were both there for their second or third abortions. Better every time to have a properly supervised procedure rather than one not properly supervised.

And, as has been said above, a foetus is not the same as a baby.

The definition of a baby is simply a foetus that has drawn breath.

You cannot say a foetus is not human as we know it. It has nerve endings and feels pain. It has heart, lungs and liver.

Calling a thing by another name is simply rationalising it.

People are free to have abortions, but let's not pretend the foetus has no feelings of pain and distress when being ripped away from its mothers cord.

There was a documentary on tv about a bunch of people demonstrating peacefully outside abortion clinics in the US. The narrator was clearly outraged by the behaviour of the demonstrators - who were just standing there with placards - but then she smpathetically interviewed a woman who had just had a termination to ask how she felt about the demonstrators on coming out of the clinic.

The woman expressed outrage that she should have to see their placards.

When asked more she explained this was her third abortion, and she had the abortion because it was just a one-night stand and she was single. She was in her thirties at least, so not a fluffy headed teen who got carried away.

So the message of the documentary was it was quite understandable this women should use abortion as a form of contraception; not once, not twice but three times.

The horrid people standing passively outside were the despicable baddies for making her feel uncomfortable about her life choices.