Ab Machines

[LFTKBS]

more repititions = more definition ... 6-pack abs.

Jesus, Riddick, is there anything you're not wrong about?

If you're male, in order to have a "six-pack," you need one thing, a body fat percentage of 10% or less. That is all. Abdominal exercises are, as always, a good idea, but strong abs alone will not give you the washboard look.

Your higher reps suggestion is both wrong and stupid.

 

[El Greco]

What other machines at the gym are useless?

I don't know, I wouldn't deem anything useless unless I know your specific goals. And then, it rather depends on how you use a specific machine than on the machine itself.

 

[HarryKeogh]

What other machines at the gym are useless?

well, not that you asked me but I'd never do lat pulldowns behind the neck, shoulder presses behind the neck, preacher curls, triceps kickbacks, standing upright rows or leg extensions.

I like my joints too much.

 

[Loon]

advice from me: work smart, not hard.

Whaddya mean, Sue?



This thread is a potential goldmine of information. And we have El Greco cornered. Or something.


A few questions:

To build muscle, how much weight for how many reps? I.e., should I do my one rep max, 5 rep max? When should I increase the weight? When I can do six reps of my old 5 rep max? How many sets?

What's the best exercise to strengthen the back and improve posture?

Is there any benefit to using the ab machines over a situp or a crunch?

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to the various cardio-type machines (bikes, recumbant bikes, eliptical trainers, stairmasters, etc.)?


Or is all this way too advanced to have an effect for me at this point and I should just push the heavy things until I hit the point of diminishing returns?


TIA

 

[The Don]

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to the various cardio-type machines (bikes, recumbant bikes, eliptical trainers, stairmasters, etc.)?

Depends what your objectives are and why you're training. If you are talking about fat burining then it would make sense to use a machine where you can exercise comfortably in the 70-85% of maximum heart rate (220-age ?) for at least 30 minutes without wearing out your joints.

Personally I find that running uphill burns a sh!t load of calories and I can do it for an hour at a time. Bikes I find uncomfortable and I'm so uncoordinated that I fall off the eliptical jobbies.

Rowing is also (IMO) exercise but keep the strokes per minute down to about 25-30 but row for 30-60 minutes.

 

[El Greco]

To build muscle, how much weight for how many reps? I.e., should I do my one rep max, 5 rep max? When should I increase the weight? When I can do six reps of my old 5 rep max? How many sets?

For general muscle building purposes 5-10 reps would do the trick. With as much volume as you can handle per week. This is highly subjective, but most people know the signs of neural overtraining when they see them. Beginners can get away with less volume.

Hit every muscle group 3 times a week. You don't have to wait for muscle recovery, contrary to what many people say. According to studies the hypertrophy signal lasts for about 36 hours after a workout, so it is more effective to workout each muscle every 2 days or even daily.

When you should increase, this is kind of tricky. Well, of course you should increase when you can. For newbies this is easy because during the first months their strength will skyrocket. But after you reach a plateau, you will be inevitably stick to the same weights. This is bad because when one lifts the same weight for an extended amount of time, the dreaded Repeated Bout Effect appears. Basically RBE is a self-protective mechanism of the muscle that reduces damage to the muscle with subsequent workouts. But we want damage, because damage is the first step to hypertrophy. It seems to be easier for RBE to develop with lighter weights. Practically, this means that you have to take about 2 weeks completely off every two months or so, so that your muscles will be re-sensitized again to the weights. If you train with heavy weights, like your 4-6RM, a simple 4-5 days of total rest for that muscle would do. This is the base of several training philosophies like HST, where you are advised to start with as low as your 20RM and then continue incrementing until you reach your 5 or even 2 RM over the course of two months. This way you stay ahead of RBE all the time, and then you take a 2 week break and start all over again. The whole program is based on the fact that you don't need to reach failure in order to grow, as long as your muscles are sufficiently deconditioned.

And of course, you can do anything right and still not grow because you don't take enough calories and protein. But this is another vast subject.

What's the best exercise to strengthen the back and improve posture?

I guess you mean the lower back, erector spinae. Regular back extensions will be fine, but any exercise that targets this muscle will do the trick. It is important that abdominals and lower back muscles ar equally developed.

Is there any benefit to using the ab machines over a situp or a crunch?

If you do them correctly, not really. You have to know that with situps you're also working the hip-leg flexors, as I said in the first post.

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to the various cardio-type machines (bikes, recumbant bikes, eliptical trainers, stairmasters, etc.)?

These are all calorie-burning machines and their quality depends on the manufacturer. Generally, cardio is not necessary for fat loss, you just have to create a caloric deficit. You might do it just by eating less. For many people cardio helps to comply because when they do cardio they are able to eat more and this decreases grhelin levels and appetite, but this is rather complicated. For calorie burning purposes an unconditioned individual can stick to plain running. If you are in better condition you shouls try High Intensity Interval Training, this could be 10-15 very hard sprints of 10-15 seconds each with slow jogging in-between. There are some studies which show amazing fat loss and muscle sparing with this protocol, but not everybody can do 10-15 really hard sprints.

 

[Loon]

Wow.

Thanks El Greco. This was both extremely quick and extremely informative.

A few follow up questions, if I may

For general muscle building purposes 5-10 reps would do the trick. With as much volume as you can handle per week. This is highly subjective, but most people know the signs of neural overtraining when they see them. Beginners can get away with less volume.

What is "neural overtraining?" Training to failure? Regular muscle pain?

Hit every muscle group 3 times a week. You don't have to wait for muscle recovery, contrary to what many people say. According to studies the hypertrophy signal lasts for about 36 hours after a workout, so it is more effective to workout each muscle every 2 days or even daily.

So does this mean I don't need to worry about doing upper body one day and lower body the next or splitting exercises between days?

If you do them correctly, not really. You have to know that with situps you're also working the hip-leg flexors, as I said in the first post.

Is there any reason by training these muscles is a problem?

For calorie burning purposes an unconditioned individual can stick to plain running. If you are in better condition you shouls try High Intensity Interval Training, this could be 10-15 very hard sprints of 10-15 seconds each with slow jogging in-between. There are some studies which show amazing fat loss and muscle sparing with this protocol, but not everybody can do 10-15 really hard sprints.

Does this also work for bikes? I prefer recumbent bikes because I can sit comfortably and pedal for an hour while engrossed in a book or a game.

The Don's comment also indicates that heart rate is important. can you get different effects for different heart rates? Is interval training a good idea?


This is such wonderful psychological prep for going to the gym tonight....

 

[El Greco]

What is "neural overtraining?" Training to failure? Regular muscle pain?

Muscle pain is irrelevant. Training to failure with heavy weights all the time will certainly accelerate neural ovetraining. In biochemistry terms, it probably comes down to lower levels of neurotransmitters. We observe it when we become gradually more "afraid" of heavy weights, when we start taking more time between sets, feeling a general fatigue even when not in the gym, diminished interest for training, irritability, etc. Training to failure has its benefits, especially for strength training, but it must be implemented with some kind of peiodization.

So does this mean I don't need to worry about doing upper body one day and lower body the next or splitting exercises between days?

Generally speaking yes. You just don't want too much volume on very heavy exercises (squats & deadlifts), but "too much" is again subjective. You could do half body one day and the other half on the next day, 2-3 sets for each muscle group, or whole body workouts every day, 1-2 sets for each muscle group. It doesn't really matter as long as 1) you don't overtrain and 2) you hit each muscle frequently enough.

Is there any reason by training these muscles is a problem?

Problems may arise if you already have issues with your back, like prolapsed disks, compressed nerves etc. Otherwise, if you don't do jerky novements and you can fully control the weight all the time (that is, don't use momentum), there will be no problems.

Does this also work for bikes? I prefer recumbent bikes because I can sit comfortably and pedal for an hour while engrossed in a book or a game.

Well, the reason I said I prefer running is that generally it consumes more energy. Sure, you can sit on the bike and burn some calories, but if I judge from my gym, 10 minutes of me on the treadmill are 1 hour of some people on the bike, as far as energy expenditure is concerned. And I wouldn't keep my workouts longer than 1 hour, since how much cortisol increases depends on the duration (and not intensity) of the exercise. For me, spending one hour just to burn 200-300 kcals just isn't worth it. I'd rather eat 2 apples less.

The Don's comment also indicates that heart rate is important. can you get different effects for different heart rates? Is interval training a good idea?

As I said, High Intensity Interval Training is the best idea if you are fit enough and can raise your heart rate to 95-100% of your maximum heart rate. "Interval Training" without high intensity would not be much different from regular cardio.

The heart rate limits that Don spoke about (70-85% of HRM) are a good bracket rate in order to burn some calories without taxing yourself too much and also without wasting your time. Basically, the lower the heart rate, the more percentage of the burned calories that comes from fat. This is why certain people suggest cardio at lower heart rates, 50-70%, so that you burn more of your energy as fat. This is completely wrong, since you may burn a higher percentage of calories from fat with low heart rates, but you burn a greater total number of fat calories with higher heart rates. The 60% of 300 is 180, but the 40% of 800 is 320. Something like that.

 

[The Don]

Another important aspect of training is recovery. You need to replensish vital fliuds and electrolytes after vigorous exercise.

I find that a large plate of Fish&Chips, 8 pints of Guinness and a pack of Silk Cut cigarettes usually does the trick.

But seriously, after sweating like a pig for a couple of hours, if you don't replace fluids during and after, you're asking for trouble

edited to add.....

Yes I know that pigs don't actually sweat and neither do fish drink

 

[El Greco]

Another important aspect of training is recovery. You need to replensish vital fliuds and electrolytes after vigorous exercise.

Yes, and also having a carb drink (like glucose 8%) to sip while at the gym will keep the testosterone/ cortisol ratio from going down. Some whey protein in it would be nice too.

And protein before gym is more important than protein after gym. Like meat 2 hours before or whey protein 30 min before.

 

[dissonance]

Great advice, El Greco.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to plug my favourite website:

Mistress Krista's Weightlifting links and lessons

It says it's for women, and some of it is advice specific to the ladies, but the majority of the information is useful for anyone who wants to lift weights.

Also, getting a six pack is all about losing bodyfat. You can do crunches until the cows come home, but if you've still got a layer of fat over the abs, you're not going to see a six pack.

 

[JamesM]

Ok, I have some queries. Assume for the following questions, I am weight training with no specific sporting training goals, or for powerlifting or bodybuilding.

1. How long should the weight training part of the workout be? I read somewhere that testosterone levels peak after 45 minutes, and after that you get diminishing returns.

2. What counts as working a muscle group? A lat pull works the biceps to a certain extent, for example.

3. How much rest time between sets? Assuming I am doing ~10 reps per set.

4. Pyramids, supersetting, negatives etc. Worth doing? Or just three sets at a particular weight?

Now dazzle me with your knowledge, gang.

 

[El Greco]

Ok, I have some queries. Assume for the following questions, I am weight training with no specific sporting training goals, or for powerlifting or bodybuilding.

Well, you must have some goals. Don't you want some level of hypertrophy, even if not at "bodybuilding" levels ? Or fat loss while preserving muscle mass ?

1. How long should the weight training part of the workout be? I read somewhere that testosterone levels peak after 45 minutes, and after that you get diminishing returns.

If you sip protein and carbs during the workout, well, you can train all day and all night as long as you don't overtrain. This may come as a surprise but that's the way it is. For practical purposes, around 1 hour would be fine since most people will be overtrained with more than 1 hour of serious lifting in the gym. And by 'overtrained' I mean that their nervous system can't handle it, the muscles will be fine. Growth hormone and testosterone will initially rise during workouts and then will fall, but we care mostly to keep cortisol down because of its catabolic properties. A sports drink during the workout may help with this. Testosterone levels are much more important on a day average, since growth happens continuously.

2. What counts as working a muscle group? A lat pull works the biceps to a certain extent, for example.

It counts of course as both a lat and a biceps exercise. But for most people, the smaller muscles that work in compound movements will also need some extra isolation work. This is because biceps probably don't get loaded eith their 5RM when you do your 5RM in rows or pulldowns. Also, the time under tension for these muscles is lower during some compounds, eg triceps work mostly in the upper half of military presses.

In general, while you train with your 8-15RM in heavy compounds like bench press and pullups, you don't need extra work for bis and tris. When you go heavier, some isolation work is in order.

3. How much rest time between sets? Assuming I am doing ~10 reps per set.

Generally speaking, as much rest as it is necessary for ATP to replenish and allow you to do the next set. This is 30 sec-1 min for light weights (15RM) but it can be more than 3 min when you do heavy sets of your 4-5RM. But you can also superset with a different muscle group without any rest. There are also special cases like glycogen depletion workouts, etc.

4. Pyramids, supersetting, negatives etc. Worth doing? Or just three sets at a particular weight?

If you would tell me your goals I could be more specific. Supersets are a nice way of saving time. Pyramids, only useful in some strength training programs. Negatives, extremely useful for hypertrophy but lead quickly to overtraining. 1-2 weeks of training with negatives every two months is enough.

 

[JamesM]

Well, you must have some goals. Don't you want some level of hypertrophy, even if not at "bodybuilding" levels ? Or fat loss while preserving muscle mass ?

Let's say I'm interested in hypertrophy without wanting to be excessive, rather than just fat loss.

Even with my vagueness, your post was very informative. Thanks, Grecster (can I call you Grecster?)!

 

[El Greco]

Let's just say that there is no danger of excessive hypertrophy. Not only it happens so slowly that you can stop it at any time, but even if you somehow realize that you are more muscular than what you want you can very quickly induce atrophy. Just watch how fast a hunger strike can turn a bulky person into a pile of bones... Besides, this is what many "underwear" models do. They pack muscle with steroids for fast results, and then they come off the drugs and lose enough muscle so that they don't look too macho.

You can call me anything you like, I've probably been called something worse by some woman

 

[dissonance]

Let's just say that there is no danger of excessive hypertrophy. Not only it happens so slowly that you can stop it at any time, but even if you somehow realize that you are more muscular than what you want you can very quickly induce atrophy. Just watch how fast a hunger strike can turn a bulky person into a pile of bones... Besides, this is what many "underwear" models do. They pack muscle with steroids for fast results, and then they come off the drugs and lose enough muscle so that they don't look too macho.

And that goes for the women, too. Nothing makes me more crazy than hearing someone repeat the old 'women should lift light weights for lots of reps so they can be toned, not bulky'. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag. Occasionally other women will ask me about my routine (I get a lot of compliments on my arms and my abs), and when I tell them, their response is usually 'oh, if I lifted weights like that I'd get all big and bulky'. What, like I have some sort of magic body that responds differently than all other women? Give me a break.

And then they go back to the pretty pink plastic weights and do 200 bicep curls. Sigh.

 

[roger]

And that goes for the women, too. Nothing makes me more crazy than hearing someone repeat the old 'women should lift light weights for lots of reps so they can be toned, not bulky'. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag. Occasionally other women will ask me about my routine (I get a lot of compliments on my arms and my abs), and when I tell them, their response is usually 'oh, if I lifted weights like that I'd get all big and bulky'. What, like I have some sort of magic body that responds differently than all other women? Give me a break.

And then they go back to the pretty pink plastic weights and do 200 bicep curls. Sigh.

It's pretty funny when people think that all it takes to be a bodybuilder is a few weeks of working out. Besides being genetic freaks, and pumped full of various legal and illegal drugs, to end up looking like that takes years of dedication, weighing every piece of food you put in your mouth, carefully constructed cycles of bulking up and slimming down, etc. But this flabby, out of shape yahoo is going to end up 'overdeveloped' in 2 weeks.

 

[El Greco]

Most women would be really happy with their body if they would just lose fat. That means burning more than you eat. But somehow many of them believe that one hour of light (if not soporific) exercise in the gym 3 times a week can cancel out all bad eating habits and their accumulated results.

 

[Suezoled]

<---ashamedly munching on caramel corn for the first time in about 4 years

 

[Jas]

Most women would be really happy with their body if they would just lose fat. That means burning more than you eat. But somehow many of them believe that one hour of light (if not soporific) exercise in the gym 3 times a week can cancel out all bad eating habits and their accumulated results.

Actually, I would be really happy with my body if my boobs were bigger. Technically, that's more fat, not less. And while eating mroe would help, it wouldn't just be confined to my chest region.

Then I could host a 'Booby Shower', where everyone would buy me expensive lingerie.