A note on Evolution

[jimlintott]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well if that's the case, what's the point in trying to understand anything?

Is there ever a point to concerning yourself with anything more than when will I eat next and who can I breed with?

However if you wish to understand things then I am suggesting that it is best to understand reality as opposed to cunstructing a fantasy and attempting to make it seem true.

 

[sackett]

Lacchus continues to plunk his one string

. . . this is why we've been given such a tremendous capacity to think about things, right?

Wrong. We haven't "been given" anything.

This old wheeze about the supposedly superfluous capacity of the human brain still comes up now and then, although you'd think even the fundoids would eventually grow out of it. (You sure az ell can't see evolution in action in their case, I'll give 'em that.) Fact is, it takes all the brains you've got to survive as a hunting savage, and the more rudimentary your technology, the more thinking, plotting, planning, and visualizing you've got to do to get along. If your breeding community, which is the entity that evolves, doesn't include genes for the brainy stuff, it'll soon go into some other line of work, like being dead -- or a chimpanzee troop, say, or,

No, I won't type "a bunch of stoopid-arsch fundies." I won't give in. I will be strong.

 

[Iacchus]

Wrong. We haven't "been given" anything.

Why do I feel like the beneficiary then? Or is that just another illusion like the whole rest of my being here?

 

[Iacchus]

Is there ever a point to concerning yourself with anything more than when will I eat next and who can I breed with?

Yes, of course.

However if you wish to understand things then I am suggesting that it is best to understand reality as opposed to cunstructing a fantasy and attempting to make it seem true.

Sorry, the only reference point any of us truly have is ourselves. Unless some of us don't consider ourselves to be real.

 

[Iacchus]

All of it. The theory of evolution does not require the Sun.

Well then, by all means, take away the sun and tell us how much of it will actually stand up.

 

[Tricky]

Of course, but it's all about the relationship now isn't it?

The relationship of what to what? The universe is filled with very complex relationships. You seem to be fixated on the relationships that the sun has with life on Earth. Really, you haven't addressed the issue at all.

But still, without any radiation to activate them, they would not "aspire" to do anything.

Even with radiation, they don't "aspire" to do anything. You are espousing Lamarkism, a theory that was disproven many years ago. Some organisms require radiation. Others do not.

In terms of development though, how can you surpass the human brain?

In many ways. It is quite egotistical to think that intelligence is the only "advanced" quality in the world. For example, can you navigate by sonar? Bats can, because their brains are more advanced in that area.

Could you be turned loose in a strange area, hundreds of miles away from home that you have never seen before, and without speaking to anyone, imediately head in the correct direction home? Pigeons can, because their brains are more advanced in that area.

So try to make that marvellous brain of your understand: Advanced does not equal intelligent.

Is a rock more durable than a human skull? So what?

Depends on what kind of rock and whether or not the human skull has been fossilized (thus, becoming rock). But again, you have completely skirted the question.

 

[aerosolben]

Evolution is a sieve, not a ladder.

Evolution is a simple gradient descent algorithm operating on a complex many-dimensional graph in a constant state of flux.

(Your favorite hockey team's goalie) is a sieve.

 

[Iacchus]

The relationship of what to what? The universe is filled with very complex relationships. You seem to be fixated on the relationships that the sun has with life on Earth. Really, you haven't addressed the issue at all.

Either that or one of us is terribly distracted on much they think they know.

Even with radiation, they don't "aspire" to do anything. You are espousing Lamarkism, a theory that was disproven many years ago. Some organisms require radiation. Others do not.

I'm espousing only what I've been able to obtain through my own observation. Sorry if it's not good enough.

In many ways. It is quite egotistical to think that intelligence is the only "advanced" quality in the world. For example, can you navigate by sonar? Bats can, because their brains are more advanced in that area.

Actually, when you get right down to it, intelligence is the only thing I think man has going for him which, of course leads me (at least) to ask why? Certainly he doesn't have the strength of his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, does he?

Could you be turned loose in a strange area, hundreds of miles away from home that you have never seen before, and without speaking to anyone, imediately head in the correct direction home? Pigeons can, because their brains are more advanced in that area.

Is it possible for sailors to navigate by the stars?

So try to make that marvellous brain of your understand: Advanced does not equal intelligent.

What does intelligence mean then, if not some high degree of something or another? And isn't it a fact that man is more capable of adapting due to his high degree of intelligence?

Depends on what kind of rock and whether or not the human skull has been fossilized (thus, becoming rock). But again, you have completely skirted the question.

All I'm suggesting is that you compare these "bugs" to the durability of a rock, and then speak to me about which has evolved and which hasn't.

 

[MRC_Hans]

That's interesting now isn't it? It would almost appear as if we were put here as an afterthought, you know, with little time to adapt?

No. The success of hominids is based on two things:

1) A simple, non specialized body.

2) A very large brain that enables us to adapt, not genetically but deliberately.

While other animals need hundreds or thousands of generations (and a bit of luck) to adapt to different conditions, we can do it in a few generations, ot less,n because of our big brain and non-specialized body.

Hans

 

[Iacchus]

2) A very large brain that enables us to adapt, not genetically but deliberately.

Hans

That's odd isn't it? ...

 

[Darat]

Well then, by all means, take away the sun and tell us how much of it will actually stand up.

Er all of it. I thought you said you knew there was life on earth that did not require the Sun?

 

[Iacchus]

Er all of it. I thought you said you knew there was life on earth that did not require the Sun?

Of course that isn't to say the theory of evolution isn't dependent upon the Sun -- in part -- because it is, and you know it is!

 

[EGarrett]

Of course that isn't to say the theory of evolution isn't dependent upon the Sun -- in part -- because it is, and you know it is!

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the sun. It simply says that life forms adapt to their environment.

That's like saying math wouldn't exist if you took away human fingers...

 

[scribble]

You'll never understand evolution if you cloud your thinking with words like advanced. Evolution only cares about fitness. Our perception of 'advanced' or 'higher' life forms has absolutely nothing to do with it and is entirely based on criteria we create.

*EXACTLY* the point I was making in the original post here.

Good job.

 

[Iacchus]

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the sun. It simply says that life forms adapt to their environment.

That's like saying math wouldn't exist if you took away human fingers...

How would they adapt if there was no environment to adapt to though? So yes, the sun has very much to do with providing a suitable environment.

 

[Fordama]

Actually, when you get right down to it, intelligence is the only thing I think man has going for him which, of course leads me (at least) to ask why? Certainly he doesn't have the strength of his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, does he?

Actually, my opposable thumbs and ability to walk upright often come in handy.

Fordama

 

[scribble]

Re: Lacchus continues to plunk his one string

... although you'd think even the fundoids would eventually grow out of it. (You sure az ell can't see evolution in action in their case, I'll give 'em that.)

Hey, Sackett. Sorry to single you out like this, but in your effort to throw in a jab at the fundies, you've totally missed the point of this thread.

Fundies beliefs evolve over time, through a process of natural selection. Evidence? How many fundies do you know today who thought the world was flat? How do you imagine that compares to the number who believed it 500 years ago, despite the fact that it was proven then, as well, that the world was round?

Okay, but that's wrong of me - that's using evolution in a metaphorical sense, and I don't want to confuse. To use it in a more literal sense:

Just because fundies are abysmally stupid doesn't mean that evolution has failed them. Stupid people may very well be adapted to their niche in life. We'll always need someone to flip burgers or to take out the trash.

 

[scribble]

How would they adapt if there was no environment to adapt to though? So yes, the sun has very much to do with providing a suitable environment.

I know you're an imaginative fellow, Iacchus, so I'm astounded you cannot imagine a scenario in which life could occur absent a star's radiation.

Or are you just confusing the question of "what is neccesary for evolution to occur" with "what is neccesary for the average being you see living on our planet to survive?"

Don't get too specific; you'll miss the discussion.

 

[scribble]

Actually, my opposable thumbs and ability to walk upright often come in handy.

I was just at the zoo, and so I can tell you at least *some* primates (ie: the ones I saw) can walk upright, no problem. I didn't get to look at their thumbs up close but I always assumed they were opposable.

 

[Iacchus]

Just because fundies are abysmally stupid doesn't mean that evolution has failed them. Stupid people may very well be adapted to their niche in life. We'll always need someone to flip burgers or to take out the trash.

Oh, is this to imply that some of us are on the lower rung of the evolutionary ladder then? Abysmally stupid? Come on now ...