A letter and appeal on Climate Change

[shadron]

I would point out that building of river levees is not a well-entertained ecological goal. It might serve Bangladesh in the short run (much as the Yellow River levees are a great boon to China, until the break), but in a truly nature-conservative (as opposed to the other kind) world rivers would be free to overflow, meander and otherwise carry on as if humans and beavers didn't exist. Alligators, shrimp and bull rushes all agree.

 

[six7s]

tl;dr

Seriously? I expect that BS on 4chan, not on the JREF.

Actually, yes completely. If your co-worker is sending this to legislators, then several pages of prolix waffle isn't going to get their attention. Their reaction will be what I wrote, but more physical, they'll just bin it.

I did read a few sample paragraphs, and while his facts seem generally accurate, they aren't supported, his writing style is far too flowery and wordy, and the whole thing is just a collection of disjointed paragraphs about environmental issues.

Just my 2c

I agree

The letter, despite formatting into paragraphs with subheaders, is merely a wall of text

I have sent this letter to governments, agencies, charities, universities, research groups, NGOs, world bodies and individuals across the world. I wanted to share it with you and I hope it can make a difference in our world.

Although the author seems sincere, it is clear from reading the opening and closing paragraphs that they have nothing to say that hasn't already been said much better, many times before

Therefore, it is absurd to expect anyone with any real political power to read all of the letter (which lacks not only structure but also content) and act on it

I suggest that, if you want to support your co-worker, you encourage him to redirect his efforts by

• joining an established group of like-minded and experienced activists
• learning how to write effectively

As it is, he's merely reinventing the wheel... out of silly-putty

 

[Number Six]

There's a line in a Beatles song that goes "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao / You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow." I don't know what specifically was meant by that but I interpret it to mean that if you try to persuade someone of something but use methods that turn them off then you're wasting your time. And writing a manifesto turns people off unless you're the Unabomer or unless you're submitting to some scholarly journal.

In general I think the environmental movement would appeal to a wider swath of people if it toned down the religious aspect. It comes off like "Hey everybody, c'mon, let's all get together and save the earth and all live in harmony with nature." Instead it should come off like "I want to do what I want to do and you want to do what you want to do but in order for us to be able to do that we have to make sure the planet stays in decent condition."

Is "saving the planet" a means to an end, i.e., a way of letting us continue to be able to live our lives well, or is it an end in itself? I think there are a lot of people that think it's the former but are turned off by activists that think it's the latter.

 

[six7s]

Is "saving the planet" a means to an end, i.e., a way of letting us continue to be able to live our lives well, or is it an end in itself?

It's a joke

The planet is a big lump of hot iron with a crust; it doesn't need saving

If you, like me, want to save the habitats that support the world as we know and like it, cool.

But so-called environmental activists who anthropomorphise it are merely deluded wooists

 

[mhaze]

Way to distort and misrepresent pretty much every thing here. Oh and "true believer Warmer"? And you call others creepy?

Only with someone with sheer bad faith would label an encouragement for more education and parental planning as "punishing people who have babies".

True believer Warmer, yes. That's what I said. And I've complained informally about the thing being in Science - you want to discuss social issues, really. Don't you?

I'm sorry, but the sheer number of times in that Jeremiah that coersion was advocated may have blurred my vision a bit. Was coercion NOT MENTIONED as part of the "plan" for people who have more than the "Right number" of babies? If so I apologize, but feel that your friend would leave the coercive tactics regarding family size to some regulatory committee in his Utopian totalitarian and jackbooted thug vision.

Or to a taxation control method vis a vis China.

Dui hao, zhenda!

There's a line in a Beatles song that goes "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao / You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow." I don't know what specifically was meant by that but I interpret it to mean that if you try to persuade someone of something but use methods that turn them off then you're wasting your time. And writing a manifesto turns people off unless you're the Unabomer or unless you're submitting to some scholarly journal.

In general I think the environmental movement would appeal to a wider swath of people if it toned down the religious aspect. It comes off like "Hey everybody, c'mon, let's all get together and save the earth and all live in harmony with nature." Instead it should come off like "I want to do what I want to do and you want to do what you want to do but in order for us to be able to do that we have to make sure the planet stays in decent condition."

Is "saving the planet" a means to an end, i.e., a way of letting us continue to be able to live our lives well, or is it an end in itself? I think there are a lot of people that think it's the former but are turned off by activists that think it's the latter.

Thank you for bringing up the line from the Beatles, whom never liked government, let alone big government or communist governments.

Basically, what you seem to be saying is that people who have this uncontrollable urge to control other people should hide it instead of putting it blatantly on display? And that then they would do better with their goal of controlling people?

But what if it is the few individuals with such uncontrollable urges (often coupled with dismal levels of intellect, skills and knowledge) who should be controlled?

 

[metzomagic]

From the letter:

There have been some significant scandals in climate science in the last few months.

And just after that:

Isolated incidents of scientific fraud do not alone merit wholesale dismissal of the entire scientific body.

The climatologists involved have been exonerated of any fraud, by two separate investigative panels. Three, if you count the group that looked into the research of Michael Mann.

So I stopped reading right after that. This just goes to show how much the reputation of the climatologists (and science in general) has been damaged by the stolen personal e-mails and quote mining of same by deniers. There has been no fraud perpetrated by the climatologists, but that's how the public perceives it to be due to the noisemaking of the deniers (the squeaky wheel gets the grease). But it's all just FUD.

Way to go deniers. Mission accomplished. We can look forward to even more delays in action to mitigate climate change now.

 

[mhaze]

.....We can look forward to even more delays in action to mitigate climate change now.

By those who do not share the concepts of the path to Redemption and the method of Salvation of the radical unthinking, yes.

Oh, and some of us have actually computed some computational computations on those political tax scams which you loftily call "mitigate climate change" and have found no reality except for the tax scam. No noticeable effect on climate from the liars and scam artists who tried to pull this con, noticeable effect on movement of cash in large amounts, yep.

.....Way to go deniers. Mission accomplished. .

What, you mean the hysterical alarmist stuff didn't work? Actual logic and reasoning by skeptics won out? No way. Look, why not make up more disgusting climate porn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxis7Y1ikIQ&feature=related

Probably your propagandists just need more funding. Maybe some focus groups? Hey I tell ya what - use little girls in those propaganda spin pieces. That'll work. Right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzSuP_TMFtk

Yeah. Right.

 

[metzomagic]

Oh yeah, and this other curious piece of disinformation, also from the OP:

Recently climate science scandals revealed that an IPCC report claimed Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035, a claim later revealed to be a scientific hoax.

WTF?! A hoax? More like an unspotted *typo* (was supposed to be 2350) in a several thousand page report. Why is this guy (either deliberately, or unintentionally through poor word choice. Can't tell) trying to make climatologists that support his case for AGW look so bad, and then on the other hand, arguing *for* AGW. Weird.

ETA: It's almost like he's saying: Ignore those pesky scientists in the corner. They're just frauds. But I know what I'm talking about, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it, so here is my completely emotional appeal for action.

The entire thing is a pile of tosh, really. And he could use a bit of buffing up on his use of language.

 

[mhaze]

Oh yeah, and this other curious piece of disinformation, also from the OP:



WTF?! A hoax? More like an unspotted *typo* (was supposed to be 2350) in a several thousand page report. Why is this guy (either deliberately, or unintentionally through poor word choice. Can't tell) trying to make climatologists that support his case for AGW look so bad, and then on the other hand, arguing *for* AGW. Weird.

ETA: It's almost like he's saying: Ignore those pesky scientists in the corner. They're just frauds. But I know what I'm talking about, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it, so here is my completely emotional appeal for action.

The entire thing is a pile of tosh, really. And he could use a bit of buffing up on his use of language.

Disinformation? <chuckle chuckle> Now that's an interesting take on the document.

Well I just figured it'd be fun and entertaining to discuss it a bit. Wherever it came from.

Black Knight on the bridge style, you know.

 

[mhaze]

There's a line in a Beatles song that goes "If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao / You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow." I don't know what specifically was meant by that but I interpret it to mean that if you try to persuade someone of something but use methods that turn them off then you're wasting your time. And writing a manifesto turns people off unless you're the Unabomer or unless you're submitting to some scholarly journal.

In general I think the environmental movement would appeal to a wider swath of people if it toned down the religious aspect.....

So you think they'd do better if they hid their true feelings and motivations and got really good at lying?

 

[mailman]

while previously...




say it to their faces...

http://www.realclimate.org/

••••

Nothing like a idjit denier rant to brighten Gavin's day...

I would say it to their faces at realclimate...but as you know, the clowns that run the circus at Realclimate do not allow "real" debate to occur on their website as they censor anything that doesnt match their beliefs out.

But you knew that already right?

Mailman

 

[mailman]

Mann - Cleared by both the NAS and the Penn State investigations.

Jones - Cleared by two investigations, one by East Anglia, the other by the House of Commons

Schmidt - Well, uh, he hasn't actually faced any of the scurrilous allegations like the academics above, so has nothing to b "cleared" of.

So what is you point exactly?

And YET controversy continues to surround these high priests of Mann Made Global Warming (tm).

As for Jones, being cleared by UEA was not totally unexpected and given the complete and utter lack of objectivity by the Government (only months away from a general election) and the fact that Oxford hasnt released his terms of references, then yeah...if you want to believe that means Jones is in the clear then I have some real estate on the moon to sell you

Oh wait, that wasnt a 5 page executive summary released by Oxford, ...that was 5 pages IN TOTAL for his ENTIRE report.

Yeah...these guys are in the clear alright

The rank dishonest and attempt at controlling the information being published should be enough to cause anyone concern. Instead, the blind faithful continue to dig their heads deeper in to the sand while proclaiming all is well with climate science.

Mailman

 

[mhaze]

And YET controversy continues to surround these high priests of Mann Made Global Warming (tm).

As for Jones, being cleared by UEA was not totally unexpected and given the complete and utter lack of objectivity by the Government (only months away from a general election) and the fact that Oxford hasnt released his terms of references, then yeah...if you want to believe that means Jones is in the clear then I have some real estate on the moon to sell you

Oh wait, that wasnt a 5 page executive summary released by Oxford, ...that was 5 pages IN TOTAL for his ENTIRE report.

Yeah...these guys are in the clear alright

The rank dishonest and attempt at controlling the information being published should be enough to cause anyone concern. Instead, the blind faithful continue to dig their heads deeper in to the sand while proclaiming all is well with climate science.

Mailman

And the Virginia Attorney General is looking into Mann.

Clearly they are all clearly in the clear.

 

[bit_pattern]

Yeah, cos politicians should be arbiters of science! But the warmers are political and mst be stopped!

You should think through what an anti academic, political witch hunt will do to American science. First, the climate science, next, the evolutionary biologists! Soon, we will have politically pure science with no bias against reactionary conservatism. Awesome!

 

[bit_pattern]

And YET controversy continues to surround these high priests of Mann Made Global Warming (tm).

As for Jones, being cleared by UEA was not totally unexpected and given the complete and utter lack of objectivity by the Government (only months away from a general election) and the fact that Oxford hasnt released his terms of references, then yeah...if you want to believe that means Jones is in the clear then I have some real estate on the moon to sell you

Oh wait, that wasnt a 5 page executive summary released by Oxford, ...that was 5 pages IN TOTAL for his ENTIRE report.

Yeah...these guys are in the clear alright

The rank dishonest and attempt at controlling the information being published should be enough to cause anyone concern. Instead, the blind faithful continue to dig their heads deeper in to the sand while proclaiming all is well with climate science.

Mailman

Whitewash! Conspiracy! Tin foil Hats! hank god for the governor of Virginia, who will go over every *thing* (defined by the governors demands to access Mann's correspondence) in the attempt to fashion a tin foil hat for him and his state tp protect them from idiocy like climate science and other anti conservative causes like evolution and rational, critical thinking. Awesome!

Mann's been cleard by the NAS, Penn State, and now a scientifically illeterate governor will pore over his email correspondence and PROVE GW is a Great Big Socialist Fraud!!!

 

[mhaze]

Whitewash! Conspiracy! Tin foil Hats! hank god for the governor of Virginia, who will go over every *thing* (defined by the governors demands to access Mann's correspondence) in the attempt to fashion a tin foil hat for him and his state tp protect them from idiocy like climate science and other anti conservative causes like evolution and rational, critical thinking. Awesome!

Mann's been cleard by the NAS, Penn State, and now a scientifically illeterate governor will pore over his email correspondence and PROVE GW is a Great Big Socialist Fraud!!!

No, he will simply look for evidence of or the lack of evidence of fraud.

That would involve willfully mis stating things to get grant funds.

I doubt if many people - including serious believers in AGW - would have any problem with that.

Oh, and by the way, it's the Attorney General that's going to dig into possible wrongdoing.

Not the Governor.

So....do you have a problem with looking into criminal fraud? Would you rather just....not?

Just....let them go?

 

[AOK Tiger]

Is it just me.. but has anyone else noticed how goddamn annoying MHaze is ?

He goes on and on debunking things left and right.. his right wing loyalty shines through everything…

You REALLY annoy me MHaze.. and what annoys me most about you is..

YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO BE RIGHT…

 

[six7s]

YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO BE RIGHT…

Yep

Of course, as any critical thinker knows, it's quite easy to be right all of the time: merely abstain from posting anything that can be (even remotely) construed as having any actual meaning

 

[mailman]

Mann's been cleard by the NAS, Penn State, and now a scientifically illeterate governor will pore over his email correspondence and PROVE GW is a Great Big Socialist Fraud!!!

Hmmmm...I wonder what goodies we are going to see? Especially in the light of what we saw in the very brief snapshot that was Climategate...I just wonder what goodies lie waiting to be exposed to the light of day?

I guess at the end of the day it doesnt really matter as those who believe Mann is the sole cause of global warming will just bury their heads even deeper in to the sand!

Mailman

 

[Hallo Alfie]

re op

tl:dr