A Friendly Place?

[jjramsey]

There could be other confounding factors. Like it being to damned cold to go out and commit crimes there.

Or that there isn't an occasion where there is a perceived need for an excuse to commit atrocities, such as a war, a "Red Scare," etc.

 

[Ladewig]

It is to be found, for sure. But, for example here in Scandinavia it is not my experience that there is such a "war", for lack of a better word, going on.

There are problems and conflicts here as well, don't get me wrong, and there's plenty of woo in Sweden all right but it's far from such a big deal here as it seems to be in the USA. I think in many ways that it is about US culture, yes.

So, in Sweden there is no equivalent of Fundies Say the Darndest Things?

 

[-Fran-]

So, in Sweden there is no equivalent of Fundies Say the Darndest Things?

No one has seen the need to make such a site in Swedish, I guess (not what I've seen anyway, there might be one that I am unaware of) but they do say the darndest things here too, for sure

 

[-Fran-]

Thank you, Fran, but I'd have to add that I don't think the United States is as weird as you think it is.

I agree it might have been a bad choice of words to say 'weird'. I was writing that following articulett's words when she said:

It has just gotten weird in the US. Embarrassingly so, I think.

It was when we came here that my family stopped going to church. My cousins and friends in Poland are devout Catholics and all of our extended family is much more religious than we are.

Yes, of course. Poland is a country where religion is highly influential of many things. That's why I made a point of comparing USA to countries in Northern Europe (or Western Europe would have been a better choice, I guess), and not the whole of Europe. It was my point that when you compare USA to countries of comparabele culture in Western Europe, then religion on the whole seem to have a bigger influence on society as a whole in USA than in Western Europe. Even considerably more influence it sometimes seems to me (but that is the part that I am unsure about, how much it actually differs, I am more certain that it does, in fact, differ). That's what I found weird. Of Poland I expect it

I was born and raised in America and way back when I was a practising Catholic, I was an anomaly among my peers. For instance, I was one of two kids in my class and that went to Sunday school in elementary school and in high school, I was one of maybe five or six that had a Christian background. I'd say the Jews, Muslims and others but they were mostly secular as well, allthough I did have a practising Jewish friend and a teacher.

All things considered, I'd say I took more for being religious in America than I do now for being an agnostic in America.

Of course, "New York City isn't the rest of America" but even when I go to "the rest of America", I'm pleasantly surprised.

For instance, I went to Texas last summer - I've always had a fascination with Texas but had never been there before- and I don't know what I was expecting but I was surprised at how multi-cultural, modern and cosmopolitan San Antonio and Houston are. I apologize if that sounds condescending or ignorant, which it probably does.

You heard a few wacky things on radio and TV once in a while, to be sure, things that made my sister and me exchange "You'd never hear that in New York!" glances but other than that, it was great.

Yes, I do understand these things as well, and I am not saying, for example, that "Scandinavia is an atheist paradise, and that USA has been overrun by fundamentalists". It's not that black or white of course. USA has made quite some achievements in science and it's of course "full of normal" as well. This forum is positively crawling with perfectly sane and nice Americans, just as one example

But I am talking about a sort of statistical average here, when it comes to religion and what influence it has over a country as a whole. How much religious notions and ideas are spread among people in general. How much it influences the politics (and indirectly then things like education and progress in science and similar things). And then, yes, it does seem to me as if the USA is much more influenced by religion than comparable countries in Western Europe. The poll above that investigated people's attitudes about other groups (in the context of who would you vote for as president), for example, made a point about singling atheists out as a controversial group to ask about in the first place, and people also responded with great suspicion about atheists it seems. This seems to be a general view among Americans then that would probably mostly be found among fundamentalist groups here.

Well, it is still my view that religion have a larger influence on people in general, and on the country as a whole in USA, than it have over here. But I am open to that I can be wrong about this, or at least that I think it is more so than it really is. In fact, it is one of those things I would be quite glad to be wrong about, because as I said above, personally it does worry me a bit. I read in some other thread how Ronald Reagan had been influenced by astrology. To me it is equally worrying that your current president seems to be influenced by religion to such an extent.

To be perfectly honest, the only thing that shocked me in Texas is that they have artists, homosexuals, Europeans, Muslims and Jews.

Edit: It's just my experience, of course, but I think most Americans are more liberal than people from other countries think. As a matter of fact, I think Americans are more liberal than we ourselves think we are.

You might have a point. The view many Europeans have of USA as a nutty country overrun by fundie religious people is in many ways simply a prejudice, but I do sometimes see Americans hold the same view about "other" states.

Lastly, I think that maybe our differing views also can be a bit about that you seem to have a much more positive outlook on life as a whole I admit that I am a rather pessimistic character, and I do find it nice that you are pleasently surprised when traveling the USA, gives me a bit of hope

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

That's why I made a point of comparing USA to countries in Northern Europe (or Western Europe would have been a better choice, I guess), and not the whole of Europe. It was my point that when you compare USA to countries of comparabele culture in Western Europe, then religion on the whole seem to have a bigger influence on society as a whole in USA than in Western Europe. Even considerably more influence it sometimes seems to me (but that is the part that I am unsure about, how much it actually differs, I am more certain that it does, in fact, differ). That's what I found weird. Of Poland I expect it

Yes, I do understand these things as well, and I am not saying, for example, that "Scandinavia is an atheist paradise, and that USA has been overrun by fundamentalists". It's not that black or white of course. USA has made quite some achievements in science and it's of course "full of normal" as well. This forum is positively crawling with perfectly sane and nice Americans, just as one example

But I am talking about a sort of statistical average here, when it comes to religion and what influence it has over a country as a whole. How much religious notions and ideas are spread among people in general. How much it influences the politics (and indirectly then things like education and progress in science and similar things). And then, yes, it does seem to me as if the USA is much more influenced by religion than comparable countries in Western Europe. The poll above that investigated people's attitudes about other groups (in the context of who would you vote for as president), for example, made a point about singling atheists out as a controversial group to ask about in the first place, and people also responded with great suspicion about atheists it seems. This seems to be a general view among Americans then that would probably mostly be found among fundamentalist groups here.

Well, it is still my view that religion have a larger influence on people in general, and on the country as a whole in USA, than it have over here. But I am open to that I can be wrong about this, or at least that I think it is more so than it really is. In fact, it is one of those things I would be quite glad to be wrong about, because as I said above, personally it does worry me a bit. I read in some other thread how Ronald Reagan had been influenced by astrology. To me it is equally worrying that your current president seems to be influenced by religion to such an extent.

You might have a point. The view many Europeans have of USA as a nutty country overrun by fundie religious people is in many ways simply a prejudice, but I do sometimes see Americans hold the same view about "other" states.

Lastly, I think that maybe our differing views also can be a bit about that you seem to have a much more positive outlook on life as a whole I admit that I am a rather pessimistic character, and I do find it nice that you are pleasently surprised when traveling the USA, gives me a bit of hope

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree that there is a considerable difference in religion between the United States and countries that are alot like us. I guess my argument is that it's that it's not as enormous as people think.

Like you said, people do seem to think that it's a country overrun by fundies and nuts- and you do have a very nuanced, fair and accurate view of it, which I'd like to give you credit for- and miss the full picture.

I do think that that's a very loud and very driven minority that pretends to speak for all of the United States and that part of the reason they are so loud and driven nowadays is because they feel threatened in America. Like you said, there's a lot of that "us against them" right now about other parts of the country on both sides.

They know they live in a country where more than 50% of the country wouldn't and didn't vote for Bush and that he'd never have won if more liberals and moderates voted, where (just to offer examples) abortion is legal everywhere, racism and homophobia aren't publicly acceptable and gays have legal rights and protections.

And again, I hate to play the "oh it's not us, it's them!" and "that's not all of America!" card but in a country consisting of 50 states, each with it's own culture, and enormous differences existing even within states, I don't think it's accurate to compare America as a whole.

So yeah, I think it looks like there is more than it really is, which isn't to say that religion doesn't play a large role in politics, social life, etc and much more so than in countries just like us.

 

[Nogbad]

So do we have numbers on how angry atheists actually are? Is there a objective evaluation of angriness?

It rather seems to me to be one of those myths that people use to reassure themselves that their choices are valid and sound.

Individuals that are vocal exponents of any particular point of view can often appear angry because the only time they are seen is when they are sounding off about their hobby horse. This includes mad mullahs and the Fred Phelpps (sp?) of this world as well as the Dawkins. That Christian Voice chap is always moaning about something and Peter Tatchell seems to be as much fun as trapping ones fingers in a drawer. Of course all of these people may be lovely when discussing non hobby horse subjects then again some may not be.

For the most part ordinary day to day, common or garden atheists are no angrier than anyone else in my experience. The rain and sunshine fall equally on all.

 

[-Fran-]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree that there is a considerable difference in religion between the United States and countries that are alot like us. I guess my argument is that it's that it's not as enormous as people think.

Like you said, people do seem to think that it's a country overrun by fundies and nuts- and you do have a very nuanced, fair and accurate view of it, which I'd like to give you credit for- and miss the full picture.

I do think that that's a very loud and very driven minority that pretends to speak for all of the United States and that part of the reason they are so loud and driven nowadays is because they feel threatened in America. Like you said, there's a lot of that "us against them" right now about other parts of the country on both sides.

They know they live in a country where more than 50% of the country wouldn't and didn't vote for Bush and that he'd never have won if more liberals and moderates voted, where (just to offer examples) abortion is legal everywhere, racism and homophobia aren't publicly acceptable and gays have legal rights and protections.

And again, I hate to play the "oh it's not us, it's them!" and "that's not all of America!" card but in a country consisting of 50 states, each with it's own culture, and enormous differences existing even within states, I don't think it's accurate to compare America as a whole.

So yeah, I think it looks like there is more than it really is, which isn't to say that religion doesn't play a large role in politics, social life, etc and much more so than in countries just like us.

Yes, I agree with you. One tends to forget that the picture is always nuanced. I am unsure about how big the difference is, yes, and how much I really need to worry (keeping my pessimism in mind as well ). It's hard to get "the zeitgeist" of a country you do not live in, and I am aware of the risk of a biased view of things, when you mostly read a lot of material that seems to speak for these views. I do spend a lot of time reading on this forum, and other skeptic blogs, who will naturally often address the things they think are a problem in the USA, but maybe not so often the things that show progress in another direction. Media on the whole in Europe is often also rather critical of the USA, sometimes it seems to be well justified, sometimes less so.

You do get a hint though, about what people from the USA who post here regard as more or less controversial subjects in their home land. And it has struck me several times, that several things that seems to be controversial in the USA, seems to be pretty much non-issues over here. Many such things brought up in different threads, have never even entered my mind before, and I see other non-American posters also being a bit about the nature of some conflicts. It's often smaller things, like this controversy about Christmas, or someone asking in a thread if it could be a bad idea to fill in a hospital form that you are an atheist, or in another thread someone saying he didn't feel comfortable reading The God Delusuin in public... Small things, but all of them together seems to point to a certain climate that seems to have no real equivalent here (though it's not an impossibility here of course). It all gives you this "feeling" of something being very different "over there".

I think you have a good point in that that loud minority feels threatened, which also makes the atheists feel threatened... it's like a vicious circle, I guess.

 

[Herzblut]

Of course, "New York City isn't the rest of America" but even when I go to "the rest of America", I'm pleasantly surprised.

For instance, I went to Texas last summer

Try Ohio!

Herzblut

 

[-Fran-]

Like you said, people do seem to think that it's a country overrun by fundies and nuts- and you do have a very nuanced, fair and accurate view of it, which I'd like to give you credit for- and miss the full picture.

Thanks, by the way. I do try. Though I'm not immune towards having biased views, and sometimes even being prejudiced. I am aware of these flaws of mine though, and try to work on them.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Try Ohio!

Herzblut

Why, what's in Ohio? Other than my uncle's ex-wife?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yes, I agree with you. One tends to forget that the picture is always nuanced. I am unsure about how big the difference is, yes, and how much I really need to worry (keeping my pessimism in mind as well ).

It's hard to get "the zeitgeist" of a country you do not live in, and I am aware of the risk of a biased view of things, when you mostly read a lot of material that seems to speak for these views. I do spend a lot of time reading on this forum, and other skeptic blogs, who will naturally often address the things they think are a problem in the USA, but maybe not so often the things that show progress in another direction. Media on the whole in Europe is often also rather critical of the USA, sometimes it seems to be well justified, sometimes less so.

You do get a hint though, about what people from the USA who post here regard as more or less controversial subjects in their homeland. And it has struck me several times, that several things that seems to be controversial in the USA, seems to be pretty much non-issues over here. Many such things brought up in different threads, have never even entered my mind before, and I see other non-American posters also being a bit about the nature of some conflicts. It's often smaller things, like this controversy about Christmas, or someone asking in a thread if it could be a bad idea to fill in a hospital form that you are an atheist, or in another thread someone saying he didn't feel comfortable reading The God Delusion in public... Small things, but all of them together seems to point to a certain climate that seems to have no real equivalent here (though it's not an impossibility here of course). It all gives you this "feeling" of something being very different "over there".

I think you have a good point in that that loud minority feels threatened, which also makes the atheists feel threatened... it's like a vicious circle, I guess.

Yeah, I see that. On the other hand, it can go both ways. You don't hear about the, say, parents in Philadelphia whose neighbors treat them as though they were insane because they homeschool their children or the kid in a New Jersey high school civics class who can't say she's against abortion out loud.

Also, I think we're only conservative by the standards of the very least religious countries in the world. For example, I can't imagine an openly atheist candidate running for President anytime soon but the good news is that we currently have an open atheist, two Buddhists and six "unaffiliated" members of Congress and none of their appointments inspired any real controversy.

That probably wouldn't sound like much to many people but it's alot more than you could say of many other societies.