A Conversation I Had...

Mycroft:
"For some, freedom doesn't mean being free to choose one's own destiny, but just being taken care of by someone else. It's too bad, but that attitude isn't uncommon."

An interesting statement. It takes it place alongside the other homilies which say that "America wants democracy in the Middle East now because it is in its interests". Democracy in the Middle East is, of course, in the interest of the 250 million other Americans who have no say in policy, but not in the interests of the actual governing elites who make the policy.

Similarly, violence in Iraq, and other places, actually is a setback to US aims, if you are thinking of the people of the US. But since violence is the only realm in which the US ruling class has any real advantage, it must use it to further its aims. There is no other tool.

For instance, if our Neocon crusaders try to bring freedom and democracy to the Middle East, along with genuine reform of its own foreign policy and a respectful diplomacy, it may well fulfill the needs of the American people, but it cannot fulfill its own needs, which are an extension of its power and control over the resources of the Middle East, and breathing space for Sparta-on-the-Littoral, Israel, which apart from its special role in the Middle East, has been complicit in atrocities, arms sales and training to US client states on behalf of US elites in Latin America and elsewhere. (If there is any "special relationship" with the US this is it.)

To actually bring something positive like democracy and freedom is not half so difficult as the US rulers now claim. But it is bloody difficult to sell the lie of democracy and freedom because intent is written all over its actions.
If you were to imagine the actions you would NOT take after going into Iraq to bring democracy and freedom, then how about the following:

- you would NOT try to privatise the economy and gain control of oil through such a process (Bremer was forced to moderate his plans here, but the original plan is clear),
- you would NOT try every trick in the book to put your Iraqi exile crew, riddled with criminals and CIA hacks, in power,
- you would NOT put off elections,
- you would NOT saddle the Iraqi government with special "orders" for 5 years and control the ministries with US personnel in order to entrench control over the country's ruling elite, direction and resources ,
- you would NOT pour those billions of dollars of aid into job creation programs for Americans but WOULD channel it to Iraqis quickly,
- you would not undersecure the country and let its institutions dissolve, its culture get smashed etc.

This is just basic, no-brainer stuff.

To do what they did is simply inconceivable, unless democracy and freedom was the furthest thing from their mind. No matter what it says, US actions tell a different story. And so it is reduced to the role of violence, because Iraqis aren't stupid. They see the pillage of their nation and seethe at the gutless, hypocritical weasel words of the US administration.

The US ruling elite, now that cover is blown, must simply be proactive in the arena in which it regards itself as superior, at least in which it has a chance of reaching its targets - which are antithetical to the goals of the US population. It has done the same throughout Central America, the Far East and elsewhere, failing dramatically in some cases (Vietnam), succeeding very well in others (Nicaragua, Haiti, Colombia and numerous others).

They are going to lose this one.
 
demon said:
Mycroft:
...
To actually bring something positive like democracy and freedom is not half so difficult as the US rulers now claim. But it is bloody difficult to sell the lie of democracy and freedom because intent is written all over its actions.
If you were to imagine the actions you would NOT take after going into Iraq to bring democracy and freedom, then how about the following:

- you would NOT try to privatise the economy and gain control of oil through such a process (Bremer was forced to moderate his plans here, but the original plan is clear),
- you would NOT try every trick in the book to put your Iraqi exile crew, riddled with criminals and CIA hacks, in power,
- you would NOT put off elections,
- you would NOT saddle the Iraqi government with special "orders" for 5 years and control the ministries with US personnel in order to entrench control over the country's ruling elite, direction and resources ,
- you would NOT pour those billions of dollars of aid into job creation programs for Americans but WOULD channel it to Iraqis quickly,
- you would not undersecure the country and let its institutions dissolve, its culture get smashed etc.

This is just basic, no-brainer stuff.
...
They are going to lose this one.
In this document:

http://www.brookings.org/dybdocroot/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

look at the table titled 'Estimated strength of resistance nationwide' in page 12.

In November 2003, US estimated that the Iraqi resistance had about 5,000 members.

Look at the table titled 'Suspected insurgents detained or killed'.

In November 2003, US killed or detained 3,000 Iraqi insurgents.

US got 1,000 more in December 2003.

2,500 more in January 2004.

These US figures mean that there were (-1,500) insurgents in Iraq as of Febuary 2004.

When adding up all the numbers, US has killed or detained 24,470 Iraqi insurgents.
This is greater than the number of insurgents now in Iraq - currently estimated at 20,000.

Man,

how come there is still fighting in Iraq?

According to this document of official US twists:

Iraq should be 'liberated' and 'peaceful' by now.


Are the Iraqis crazy or what?
They don't know that US spins data for their own 'liberation'?
 
Ion, Demon...

It's difficult reading all your reasons that America is bad. It's hard, I guess because I see radical Islam as a bigger menace to world order than freedom, even if America is the instrument of it.

You go right up to the edge but you don't say what we should do. It's all we shouldn't have done that or lied about that. I don't accept your assertions but maybe there is some area of agreement. Tell me, where does that leave us. What should we do now?

Cut and run, stay and fight, is there a third alternative? And is Kerry the man to implement it? I would think that if cut and run is your preferred tactic then yes, Kerry would naturally be the better candidate. Likewise, I think for stay and fight, Bush has shown that resolve.

I have been of the opinion for about 15 years that the middle east would change only through some measure of armed conflict. I thought the Palestinian issue would be the one that would start it, but I now think Iraq was even more of a viper's nest and definitely had the bigger upside.

Did you believe that the Middle East would have eventually sorted itself out and become peaceful or were you of the opinion that things were likely to get worse?

I guess I would like to know if you have a strategic vision yourself or if you just hate America for trying to bring about change.
 
Atlas said:
Ion, Demon...

It's difficult reading all your reasons that America is bad. It's hard, I guess because I see radical Islam as a bigger menace to world order than freedom, even if America is the instrument of it.

You go right up to the edge but you don't say what we should do. It's all we shouldn't have done that or lied about that. I don't accept your assertions but maybe there is some area of agreement. Tell me, where does that leave us. What should we do now?
...
Dammit, just fit in the forum of nations called UN.

I remember February 2003, when UN was disagreeing on Iraq with Bush and when protests against the incoming war -as decided by Bush alone- were staged across US, that Bush deemed both as being "...irrelevant...".

The arrogant, gaga man was in charge of disaster...

When it got tough for Bush in Iraq, Bush denied himself and went to beg the "...irrelevant..." UN for military and financial help in September 2003 and once again in January 2004.

I saw in another forum that foreign venture capitals (billions invested in the US during Clinton by Sweden, France, Germany) are witheld now, waiting for Bush to take a hike in November.
Part of the reason for the US economy sputtering right now is that there is now a financial embargo that the world is doing on Bush.

I saw that Europe considers now US and Israel the top two threats to peace in the world.

I saw in the news that terrorists don't touch US right now in order to not give ammunition to Bush before the November US Presidential election, but if Bush is elected then to terrorists all the Americans become as guilty as Bush is.

The solution is:

.) bring a diplomat, a more intelligent and more humanitarian person than Bush is to the US Presidency;

then

.) a coalition of UN countries will share the burden and reap the benefits of an international co-operation in Iraq and in the world.

Bush painted himself in a corner and he dragged US with him.
 
Atlas said:
It's difficult reading all your reasons that America is bad. It's hard, I guess because I see radical Islam as a bigger menace to world order than freedom, even if America is the instrument of it.

What's the link between radical Islam and Iraq? Saddam Hussein was an enemy of radical Islam.

You go right up to the edge but you don't say what we should do. It's all we shouldn't have done that or lied about that. I don't accept your assertions but maybe there is some area of agreement. Tell me, where does that leave us. What should we do now?

If we're fantasising, how about bringing the liars, torturers and war criminals in the US system to justice? That would be a good thing to do now. Putting Saddam Hussein in jail was an excellent start, but there is still more to be done.

Cut and run, stay and fight, is there a third alternative? And is Kerry the man to implement it? I would think that if cut and run is your preferred tactic then yes, Kerry would naturally be the better candidate. Likewise, I think for stay and fight, Bush has shown that resolve.

This is a silly argument. You get two choices in your next election, stay in Iraq with Bush or stay in Iraq with Kelly.

"I am in blood stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o'er."

I guess I would like to know if you have a strategic vision yourself or if you just hate America for trying to bring about change.

This too is silly. I don't have a strategic vision for how Stalin should have industrialised the USSR and defeated Hitler's invading armies. I can still condemn his atrocities, and that doesn't mean I "hate Stalin for trying to bring about change".

Was it really not apparent to you when you wrote the passage above just how obvious a false dichotomy you were presenting? It's no wonder people accuse you of being blinded by propaganda if that's the level of thinking you present to the board.
 
Originally posted by Ion
Dammit, just fit in the forum of nations called UN. I think we fit in. The Security Council agreed unanimously that Saddam had better come clean or there would be serious repercussions. The problem was that France was telling Saddam that they were going to head us off. France, Germany and Russia wanted to keep Saddam in power and they were playing both sides. They knew Saddam was a bad man but they were into him for Billions and that colored their decision. We feared Saddam was able to arm our enemy with chemical and biological weapons and wanted him gone. We had the UN approval, what more did we need to do since they were not going to follow through?

When it got tough for Bush in Iraq, Bush denied himself and went to beg the "...irrelevant..." UN for military and financial help in September 2003 and once again in January 2004. The situation had changed. We had ousted the dictator. The world's reluctant nations were either afraid to act in their own best interest, or wanted to teach the US a lesson (more likely) even though failure would not be in anyone's interest. I don't see the UN blameless or all wise in this, do you?

I saw in another forum that foreign venture capitals (billions invested in the US during Clinton by Sweden, France, Germany) are witheld now, waiting for Bush to take a hike in November.Part of the reason for the US economy sputtering right now is that there is now a financial embargo that the world is doing on Bush. I'd like to read the article if you have a link.

I saw that Europe considers now US and Israel the top two threats to peace in the world. I guess I can see that from France and Germany. We are actively fighting terrorism. I wonder how far down the list radical Islamic terrorists were listed.

I saw in the news that terrorists don't touch US right now in order to not give ammunition to Bush before the November US Presidential election, but if Bush is elected then to terrorists all the Americans become as guilty as Bush is. That could be propaganda. I'm just sayin... I'd like to read that too if you've got a link.

The solution is:
.) bring a diplomat, a more intelligent and more humanitarian person than Bush is to the US Presidency;
then
.) a coalition of UN countries will share the burden and reap the benefits of an international co-operation in Iraq and in the world.
France has already rejected that idea. There is already a coalition there in Iraq. Are you saying Zarqawi would be persuaded by blue helmets? The US will still be doing the heavy lifting. We'll just have another level of political bureaucracy to deal with.

Ion, we are in some agreement here though. Cut and run is not to be considered, right? I think we are in agreement that it is in everyone's interest to find a way to victory... True?
 
Ion said:
Saddam was trading his oil in Euros not in US dollars, to Bush's dismay


buzzz. Sorry your time is up.

You have just uttered some complete crap and your credibility is now zero.
 
Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
What's the link between radical Islam and Iraq? Saddam Hussein was an enemy of radical Islam. I think the link is in the old arab saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." When there was advantage in it North Korea made a deal with Clinton. And North Korea hates the US. Saddam was just as unscrupulous. He allowed terrorists to hide out on his soil. There were documented contacts and meetings between al Queda and Saddam's regime.

If we're fantasising, how about bringing the liars, torturers and war criminals in the US system to justice? That would be a good thing to do now. Putting Saddam Hussein in jail was an excellent start, but there is still more to be done. We seem to be doing that. Or do I miss your drift here.

This is a silly argument. You get two choices in your next election, stay in Iraq with Bush or stay in Iraq with Kelly. I did ask, "Is there a third alternative?" It wasn't a rhetorical question. I believe it in everybody's interest to do what it takes and find a way to victory. I do think this is the Bush strategy. Kerry is kinda hard to read. He wants to enlarge the coalition by denigrating those that are already with us and by calling this the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time. It doesn't seem a good strategy for getting more people on board. So that leaves cut and run.

This too is silly. I don't have a strategic vision for how Stalin should have industrialised the USSR and defeated Hitler's invading armies. I can still condemn his atrocities, and that doesn't mean I "hate Stalin for trying to bring about change". No. Some posters neglect to mention that the other side is doing bad things. It's all and only the US that is being evil and arrogant. There is no sense of proportion. If a civilian dies it's because of the US. The enemy can do no wrong. That's kinda silly too, don't you think.

Was it really not apparent to you when you wrote the passage above just how obvious a false dichotomy you were presenting? It's no wonder people accuse you of being blinded by propaganda if that's the level of thinking you present to the board. It would have been a false dichotomy had I not offered you the option of providing any other answer you might choose.

I really believe that radical Islam and terroristic nations (including Saddam's Iraq) represent a threat as great to the world as Naziism. We must eliminate their staging areas. If we don't find a way to peace in the region the threat will continue to spread. Nations exporting terrorism or harboring terrorists must be held accountable. Saddam was guilty of both. Syria and Iran are as well. We'll go through the UN again to make the world aware and if they agree but won't act, like Iraq, then we'll have to do something ourselves. I don't consider myself a neoconservative. But we are facing some tough decisions on Iran, don't you agree?
 
Skeptic said:
(No, I'm not making this up.)
Why in the world would you think that anybody could believe that you would make stuff up. After all, you have never made up anything in the past.... except for the stuff you made up.
 
Skeptic said:
HIM (changing the subject from a completely unrelated issue): Look, everybody knows the war in Iraq is a catastrophe. We are doing nothing for them.

ME: Oh? Removing Saddam Hussein...

HIM: That would matter if we were giving them healthcare or social services. We could be using the time in Iraq to build a national healthcare or social security system there. We aren't doing that.

ME (puzzled): So it doesn't count unless they get social security?

HIM (with victory in his voice): What's the use of freedom without national healthcare and social security?

ME: I don't know. But a certain George Washington wanted freedom from the British even without these essential elements, if I recall correctly.

(No, I'm not making this up.)

You must have a lot of friends.
 
Re: Re: A Conversation I Had...

a_unique_person said:
You must have a lot of friends.

Actually, I do.

I found out, to my surprise I admit, that people actually PREFER someone who is "telling it like it is" occassionally, even if it disagrees with them, than the flavorless "politically correct" crowd who all sound the same, and you know exaclty what they'll say from the start.

We are certainly still friends, if that's what you mean.
 
Why dont we provide the Kuwaitti people with freedom/democracy? Or do they have enough "essential elements" that there is no need freedom?
 
Drooper said:


buzzz. Sorry your time is up.

You have just uttered some complete crap and your credibility is now zero.
Who is this idiot?

Drooper?

That's what dogs leave behind them in the street, a Drooper?
 
Why dont we provide the Kuwaitti people with freedom/democracy?

We did. We kicked Saddam out of there, remember?

Or do they have enough "essential elements" that there is no need freedom?

While Kuwait is not exactly a democracy, it seems to lack the mass graves, secret police, torture cells, and nerve gas used on its own citizens that made Iraq so "secure".
 
This is the crux of your post:

(as for the links to my other claims, I don't undertake them in my post here, but if you insist that they are primordial then I would have to dig in another forum for what I read there over the past year and find the links and bring them here)
Atlas said:

...
...France has already rejected that idea. There is already a coalition there in Iraq. Are you saying Zarqawi would be persuaded by blue helmets? The US will still be doing the heavy lifting. We'll just have another level of political bureaucracy to deal with.
...
France has not rejected that idea.

France has rejected that idea with Bush at the helm of US, but has not rejected that idea without Bush at the helm of US.

From what I read in the newspaper, when Bush denied himself and went to beg the "...irrelevant..." UN for military and financial help in September 2003 and January 2004, France refused to help Bush.

The impression I was getting from the French quotes in the newspaper was that the French were asking along the lines:

"...What's in it for us? Send money and military to help, but reap nothing?..."

This is where Bush blew it once again, diplomacy-wise:

he was insisting in having any coalition led by US military, to have US exempt from military prosecution, and in August 2003 he made a list of countries and companies that cannot bid in the Iraq's reconstruction.

The result is that as of now "...The US will still be doing the heavy lifting...", meaning that as of now the Iraq's war is funded by Bush exclusively by draining the US consumer economy with taxes, instead of sharing the burden of the Iraq's war with UN.

I trust Kerry is more intelligent than this...
 
Ion said:
Who is this idiot?


Whoever this idiot is, I must include myself in his idiot-group. You have lost credibility with me as well. You could redeem yourself by providing extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim. I willing to bet that should you provide such, that evidence will be in the form of several links to either woo-woo sites or the UK Guardian...er...same thing. At any rate, it will hardly be extraordinary except in the ironic sense.
 
Rob Lister said:
Whoever this idiot is, I must include myself in his idiot-group...
Then you are in his idiot-group too.

Two in Drooper's idiot-group.

More?

As for the two dimwits so far in the class of Drooper -aka what dogs leave behind them in a street, a Drooper- and Lister -of the "...woo-woo sites or the UK Guardian..." fame of 'intelligence'- this:

http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-chapman310704.htm

shows Bush's economic interest in having the world -starting with Iraq and the Iraq's war- trade in US dollars and not in Euros.
 
Skeptic said:


While Kuwait is not exactly a democracy, it seems to lack the mass graves, secret police, torture cells, and nerve gas used on its own citizens that made Iraq so "secure".


And yet George Washington wanted freedom from the Brits even without such atrocities. :)


If you really tell it like it is then drop the Iraqi synmpathy act. We never gave a crap about the people until it became a useful excuse to invade. The Kurds were gassed over a decade ago and were in no danger of that happening agian cause of UN protection. Who says the secrete police and torture still dont exist, and the mass graves story is still unclear as to whether those were Iran war casualties.
 
Ion said:

The first order by Bush after invading Iraq, was to change the trade of the Iraq's oil from Euros to US dollars.

Bush did show his true colors then.

Quod Erat Demonstratum

Exactly what do you think has been demonstrated?
 
Mycroft said:
Exactly what do you think has been demonstrated?
'Dictator' is for Bush's propaganda for mass consumption.

Dictator-wise Bush supports a dictator in Uzbekistan.

Bush wanted Iraq's oil to be traded in US dollars and not Euros.

That's why (and a few other reasons) he attacked Iraq.
 

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