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911 physics for dummies

You found only false information; how did you just get 9/11 truth junk? Are you on purpose looking for the lies?

Beachnut, I don't quite understand why you keep saying I've only found 9/11 truth junk. Look at my first post! I mention papers by Greening and Mackey. I read the whole Mackey paper. I've read the recent critique of Jones in Gravy's links. You seem to have missed the point of my post.

The paper you found is good. Take it and your fall time questions to your local physics teacher, and ask them for some help to protect you from the fraud of 9/11 junk science. The teacher or professor can give you some ideas.

That's precisely why I posted this here !!!! Because this is supposed to be a good place to get help with understanding the physics.


Beachnut, I don't understand where you're coming from. Look, if your tired with truthers, fine. But don't take your frustrations out on me. I"M NOT A TRUTHER, and I'm aware of all the important physics papers from debunkers. It was in my very first post !!! I just don't understand them as well as you do. Right now, I'm getting the "hitting a brick wall" feeling when I argue with truthers. Honestly, why are you intent on putting a negative spin on what I write? I consider myself part of the debunker mvt.
 
Stop

STOP!

Just stop for a minute or ten and ask yourself why a big exploration of physics is even necessary.

The towers fell, this is a fact that is in not dispute by anyone. They are gone.

You either believe that it was caused by aircraft impact and fire, or not.

If not, then endeavor to explain why not. This is the real question, yes?

Why is this issue becoming so complicated?
 
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Everyone, if you think this thread is totally ridiculous, let me know and I'll delete it (if I can.) My main purpose is, to what extent are the main physics claims elementary questions, and to what extent is it going to be confirmed by any physics professor picked at random? I honestly, after over a year of reading this stuff, don't know 100% for sure. Sure, I'm pretty convinced. But I'm going after the "100% sure." When I read the Greening paper mentioned, I struggle with the definitions and formulas. Please appreciate how someone with hardly any science background might look at that stuff.
It all depends on the question. For instance, the first question requires knowledge of the structure in order to calculate its resistance. The second question is one of elementary physics. The third is based on a false premise.

Why are you only "pretty convinced" that the 9/11 skyscrapers collapsed from damage and fire? Does it give you pause that the 9/11 deniers haven't produced a single paper about the engineering or physics of the collapses that would pass muster in a reputable journal?
 
STOP!

Just stop for a minute or ten and ask yourself why a big exploration of physics is even necessary.

The towers fell, this is a fact that is in not dispute by anyone. They are gone.

You either believe that it was caused by aircraft impact and fire, or not.

If not, then endeavor to explain why not. This is the real question, yes?

Why is this issue becoming so complicated?

Some people are on the fence. I am one of them. So what should I do in my case?
 
STOP!

Just stop for a minute or ten and ask yourself why a big exploration of physics is even necessary.

The towers fell, this is a fact that is in not dispute by anyone. They are gone.

You either believe that it was caused by aircraft impact and fire, or not.

If not, then endeavor to explain why not. This is the real question, yes?

Why is this issue becoming so complicated?

OK, well then why don't you ask Mackey and Greening why they waste their time with their physics papers? If they're going to write them, and people here recommend them, then what on earth is wrong with asking for some help in trying to understanding them better?
 
Some people are on the fence. I am one of them. So what should I do in my case?
Get informed. Don't rely on people who get nothing right for your information, as you had been doing. Is this really difficult to understand?
 
It all depends on the question. For instance, the first question requires knowledge of the structure in order to calculate its resistance. The second question is one of elementary physics. The third is based on a false premise.

Why are you only "pretty convinced" that the 9/11 skyscrapers collapsed from damage and fire? Does it give you pause that the 9/11 deniers haven't produced a single paper about the engineering or physics of the collapses that would pass muster in a reputable journal?

Would a reputable journal even consider publishing a solid, fact based paper that refutes 9-11? I don't think it is possible given the current climate.
 
1 As Prof. Jones likes to say, explosives were needed to “eliminate” or remove the mass to account for free fall/ almost free fall, every x floors.

Collapse speed was neither freefall nor "almost" free fall.


2 -The twin towers fell into their own footprints (approximately, at least). And the related claim it took the path of “most resistance.” (comment: what would the path of most resistance actually be?)

The towers did not fall into their own footprint, nor even remotely close to their own footprint. They did not topple over, however, as this would require enormous lateral force that cannot be explained.


3 - burning steel pieces (weighing thousands of pounds) of the towers were hurled outward for hundreds of feet at speeds of about one hundred feet per second. . . . .

Objects falling due to gravity attain a speed of 100feet per second in the space of three seconds.

The observation of material landing hundreds of feet from the towers directly refutes the previous claim. Material landed so far away because the exterior column network peeled away from the towers in enormous multi-floor sections. This sections pivoted around the bottom point (as one would expect) resulting in significant lateral forces being applied to the stop sections, throwing them outwards as the column structure broke up (think of it like swinging your arm forwards holding a ball while outstretched, and imagine then letting go of the ball, will it fall straight down, or outwards?).



Calculations which took into account the energy consumption required to pulverize the buildings as observed show that the collapses took place at a rate over three times that which was possible by gravity alone.

The towers did not collapse in 3 seconds, so this is total garbage. The buildings were also not pulverized.



In reality, steel bends, and over 200 supporting columns, along with their cross-bracing would need to get out of the way at once to allow the upper section to fall.

The exterior columns peeled outwards ahead of the collapse wave, and the upper section twisted out of alignment with the core columns - the major collapse force was applied to the floor trusses which were never intended to hold any significant loading.


I have access to several videos of the tower collapses, and they all show a characteristically high volumes of smoke being expelled from the buildings just prior to their vertical movement. The smoke is consistent with the color of aluminum oxide generated from thermite reactions

The high volumes of smoke were on account of the buildings being on fire. The smoke was black, as expected from the burning of carbon-rich fuel. Thermite reactions produce white smoke.



The fires were not hot enough to weaken the steel to the point of failure, although efforts have been made to alter data and reality in order to meet that criteria

The fires in the WTC reached temperatures of 1000 degrees centigrade. At this temperature steel loses 90% of its load bearing capacity.



Even the NIST investigators had to distort the data to create their model where collapse inititiation would occur. Their own lab tests failed to duplicate the condition where the steel would sag to the degree to which they claim took place

It is standard scientific practise to "tweak" models so that they accurately reflect the reality of what happened. You do not tweak reality to more accurately reflect the model.

The lab tests on floor truss sagging were not designed to imitate conditions in the WTC, but to establish fire performance benchmarks for the assembly in question.

-Gumboot
 
Beachnut, I don't quite understand why you keep saying I've only found 9/11 truth junk. Look at my first post! I mention papers by Greening and Mackey. I read the whole Mackey paper. I've read the recent critique of Jones in Gravy's links. You seem to have missed the point of my post.



That's precisely why I posted this here !!!! Because this is supposed to be a good place to get help with understanding the physics.


Beachnut, I don't understand where you're coming from. Look, if your tired with truthers, fine. But don't take your frustrations out on me. I"M NOT A TRUTHER, and I'm aware of all the important physics papers from debunkers. It was in my very first post !!! I just don't understand them as well as you do. Right now, I'm getting the "hitting a brick wall" feeling when I argue with truthers. Honestly, why are you intent on putting a negative spin on what I write? I consider myself part of the debunker mvt.
I said you found just 9/11 truth junk, I was asking how you did it and did not find one real conclusion based in facts.

You need to focus and keep going. I was amazed you collected just truther junk, that is an observation, so?

Yep you have mentioned other work, but you did not seem to learn anything as you said. So? You can carry on, or can you? Either get busy with what you want or get upset, 9/11 is an event, 9/11 truth is a cult.
 
Would a reputable journal even consider publishing a solid, fact based paper that refutes 9-11? I don't think it is possible given the current climate.
You'll have to wait until such a paper is produced, mmkay? :rolleyes:
 
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OK, well then why don't you ask Mackey and Greening why they waste their time with their physics papers? If they're going to write them, and people here recommend them, then what on earth is wrong with asking for some help in trying to understanding them better?
My question stands. If you doubt the impact and fire scenario, then explain the alternative with equal completeness and credulity of the recognized authorities.
 
OK, well then why don't you ask Mackey and Greening why they waste their time with their physics papers? If they're going to write them, and people here recommend them, then what on earth is wrong with asking for some help in trying to understanding them better?
They do the papers since liars who say they are experts mislead the people unable to understand. The 9/11 truth movement is based on false information.
 
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Right. Now that this is starting to devolve into name-calling, and the posts with links actually relevant to the topic (mine and beachnut's second try) are rapidly being left behind, I am going to try again starting with the OP.

... So I'm curious, to what extent would the most basic physics claims supporting a “natural collapse” be accepted by all (or almost all) physicists? I'm confining myself to the twin towers for now. For instance, what formulas/calculations, etc., if shown to the average college level physics professor, would unhesitatingly be endorsed; and which ones (given by truthers) would be firmly rejected? Would they automatically reject Ross and Kuttler, in favor of Greening and Mackey, for example? Or might they be divided?...


One strong indication that the papers by Bazant and Greening (leaving Mackey out of this for now) would be much more strongly accepted than Ross and Kuttler is the simple fact that Bazant, Greening, et al have been accepted by people with the appropriate background. Just look at which papers were peer-reviewed and published in the journals endorsed by the reputable trade and industry groups and which ones have not. This strongly suggests which side is supported by people with a background in the relevant fields.

Thanks for helping the science-challenged, and for putting up with potentially already-answered-a-thousand-times-questions.

Chris


And this statement pretty much describes why you are facing the hostility in this thread. I know the search engine on this forum sucks dead bears (unless you are particularly Google-enlightened), but the information really is there.

I would recommend backing up, asking one specific question, allowing people to either post a single reply or links containing previously posted replies, rather than splurging out all 9 questions in one go. :)
 
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Would a reputable journal even consider publishing a solid, fact based paper that refutes 9-11? I don't think it is possible given the current climate.
There are not facts to support the thermite junk and CD. What do you mean refutes 9/11? Which part exactly?

Added; Gravy is right; this is best doing it yourself and look up your questions first, then ask questions. You can start by building yourself some information you can back with real sources.
 
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Would a reputable journal even consider publishing a solid, fact based paper that refutes 9-11? I don't think it is possible given the current climate.
Are you saying that you think politics plays a role in determining whether a deserving paper gets published in a scientific journal? What about scientific journals published outside the United States? How would they be subject to American politics?
 
The towers did not collapse in 3 seconds, so this is total garbage. The buildings were also not pulverized.
I think the claim there is that the gravity collapses should have taken longer without the building's supports being removed by explosives or somesuch.

The exterior columns peeled outwards ahead of the collapse wave.
I disagree with that statement. I think it's clear that the exterior columns peeled away as, and after, the collapse wave hit them.
 
Get informed. Don't rely on people who get nothing right for your information, as you had been doing. Is this really difficult to understand?

You say so. Others say you have it wrong. Who can I trust? So I need to weigh all information for myself.
 

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