911, investigation

i dont think this is the first question to answer.
Well, if in order to get an investigation started, THIS would be the first question ask : whom will be part of it.

always, first come realise investigation need, *then* say who do.
well, no one here believes another investigation is needed since the government spent millions of tax payers dollars to fund 1 big investigation; and two other organizations did their own. All of which , their findings have been publicly available since 2005.

if i can choose i think international judge and investigators do.

why?

independent of usa gouvernment.

why?

more so than 911 commission was.
maybe you think is hopeless, but i dont like this attitude.

what attitude? that we dont want money wasted on another investigation that is only going to be repeating what the first one stated?

i dont understand why so many people dont like new investigation here.

Because one was already done, at the expense of millions of dollars in tax payers money. And two other organizations have done so too.

i think saying is too expensive is not really a good argument.
Why? do you want another 100 million siphoned to an investigation that will only produce the same results? when we can put that 100 million into funding schools? securing our borders? reform our immigration laws? pay teachers better salaries? get people off of welfare? BRING OUR TROOPS back from iraq?

because now we spend so many time (and money) speaking about this everywhere, sooo many people. so many have question.
we continue to speak about it, because dolts like troofers dont know when they are clobbered by simple facts.

not only conspiracy people. i dont understand why not investigate.
answered ad nauseum

because it is cheaper after some years believe me. i think only people scared of investigation dont want it.

no it wont be cheaper.
 
Many posts by Perry Logan

Since the day it happened I have been puzzled as to why the Sandy Berger affair was not taken more seriously. He was a top aide to Pres. Clinton and he was stealing classified documents; how is that not worthy of national outrage? I know he was only stealing copies, however there were five copies, he stole two or three of them, and their were "minor differences" between the copies. What were the minor differences? We don't know because, after first telling several different lies about the affair Mr. Berger admitted that he destroyed the documents, so we will never know.

It is obvious that you have a team in the game, but can you really just blow this of as insignificant? There was something there that he did not want made public. Was he overreacting? Perhaps, maybe it wasn't really that important at all. When it comes to people or things critical to them the Clinton's have been known to swat gnats with sledgehammers. But we will never know now.


As to placing blame: I have always felt that this situation started with the Iranian revolution and that every administration after that can take its share of blame for mishandling the middle east and terrorism. I am not about to jump on the "one side good, other side bad" bandwagon.

Most to blame, however are the American people. We saw it happening but as long as things at home were OK we were willing to look the other way at impotent responses to gross provocation. Every President since Jimmy Carter has gone on TV and made some bold fist pounding speech about terrorism and then done little or nothing to back it up. The American people should have held their feet to the fire about it but we didn't.

I know that isn't as fun as blaming your team's division rival, but I feel it is closer to the truth.
 
Have you read the PNAC-report? :confused:

Where exactly does it say that they need (or want) a "catalysing event" to undertake wars?

Well, I confess I haven't read the whole report. However I read this:
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (p.51)

http://newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm (see rebuilding america's defenses)
 
Well, I confess I haven't read the whole report. However I read this:
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." (p.51)

http://newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm (see rebuilding america's defenses)
Yes, well, I have read the report.

The "process of transformation" they want has nothing to do with undertaking wars, or getting people's agreement to undertake wars.
Nor do they say they want a "new Pearl Harbor". They just mention that the "process of transformation" will be long, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event.

Moreover, the "process of transformation" PNAC called for has absolutely nothing to do with the wars we have seen since 9/11.

CT-sites have outrageously misinterpreted this quote for years.
 
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Most to blame, however are the American people. We saw it happening but as long as things at home were OK we were willing to look the other way at impotent responses to gross provocation. Every President since Jimmy Carter has gone on TV and made some bold fist pounding speech about terrorism and then done little or nothing to back it up. The American people should have held their feet to the fire about it but we didn't.

Well, the guys that flew those planes are to blame, but your point is understood.

True. Yes, the presidents of the last 50 years or so royally screwed up the situation in the Middle East and allowed us to be viewed as a paper tiger, but we put them there. We sat back and let them make those gestures without holding them to it.

We let them work backroom deals with murderous dictators in our name. We turned a blind eye to the horrible situations in those countries.

We didn't make enough noise about dealing with the Shah of Iran. We allowed the Marine barracks bombing to go unanswered. We just shrugged off Iran Contra. We said nothing when our soldiers in Somalia were handed over to the UN to pursue Bhutros Ghali's agenda. We said nothing when they were pulled out as soon as the fighting got ugly, giving terrorist cells a victory over them.

We forgot about the embassy bombings in 1998 almost the next day.

We didn't mind when the Palestinian Authority decided they didn't need to uphold their responsibilities under the Oslo Accords.

Time and time asgain, we believed the "we don't deal with terrorist" crap no matter how many times the government did.


Sorry for the rant. That is just one of my buttons.
 
Yes, well, I have read the report.

The "process of transformation" they want has nothing to do with undertaking wars, or getting people's agreement to undertake wars.
Nor do they say they want a "new Pearl Harbor". They just mention that the "process of transformation" will be long, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event.

Moreover, the "process of transformation" PNAC called for has absolutely nothing to do with the wars we have seen since 9/11.

CT-sites have outrageously misinterpreted this quote for years.

I agree that this report was often misquoted, but I think that you are ignoring basic realities, here. I read the whole report, in order to be as close to its essence as possible. I can't let you say that the idea of "a new pearl harbor" that would acelerate what they think are necesary changes is not in the report. Please consider the following points.

I. What the report calls for, as the title "rebuilding America's defenses" suggest, is a dramatic increase in military expenditures, which the report think were slashed in the post-cold war era.

I would like you to pay attention to critical figures: military expenditures before and after 9/11: (in 2007 dollars, let's be precise, that do not include the direct cost of af-iq wars)
- 2000: 385 billions
- 2001: 348 billions (NB: budget that was voted prior to 9/11)
- 2002: 382 billions (NB: also voted before 911)
- 2003: 500 billions (+ 120 billions or +27%!: first post 911 budget)

And so on: FYI, Bush has asked Congress a total 2008 military budget of 643 billions dollars, a more than 40% increase, largely thanks to sept 11.

Therefore sept 11 was the catalysing event without which this could not have been possible. Wether you agree with this trend or not, you must admit that 1) sept 11 made it possible 2) this report did say it would be a long and difficult process "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor"

II. Furthermore consider that, although the report does not advocate regime change in Iraq (it wouln't have been wise to publicly do so) it mentions the name "Iraq" 25 times in a 76 pages long report with quotes such as :

« In the post-Cold War era, America and its allies, rather than the Soviet Union, have become the primary objects of deterrence and it is states like Iraq, Iran and North Korea who most wish to develop deterrent capabilities »
« Potential rivals such as China are anxious to exploit these transformational technologies broadly, while adversaries like Iran, Iraq and North Korea are rushing to develop ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons as a deterrent to American intervention in regions they seek to dominate. »

So, as you can see, the pre-war rethoric is already in there: Iraq has or develops WMDs. What's the next logical step in theur mind? I'll let you guess.

III Conclusion

It is fair that sept 11 made the neocon agenda possible (in terms of militay spendings, etc...)
It is fair to say that, although this report did not directly call for invasions, it already presents the future mindset of the neocons in the run up for the Iraqi invasion of march 2003.

Thx for you attention.

Busherie
 
True. Yes, the presidents of the last 50 years or so royally screwed up the situation in the Middle East and allowed us to be viewed as a paper tiger, but we put them there. We sat back and let them make those gestures without holding them to it.



I don't buy this. The middle-east is not the west's fault. It's the middle-east's fault. They made the place a mess themselves. The only reason it even affects us is oil. We need it, they have it. Without the oil, they are nothing.

So we get constantly dragged back into the middle-east to try and fix THEIR problems, so we can have our safe supply of oil.

We need to secure a new primary natural resource, so we can cut the ties to the middle-east that are dragging us into their mess, then let them destroy themselves.

Look at the Balkans. The Balkans is the Middle-east without oil. Sure, we might dabble a bit when people get massacred, and the Europeans had a vested interest because it's on their doorstep, but the mess in the Balkans hasn't caused major problems for the rest of the world since 1918.

-Gumboot
 
I agree that this report was often misquoted, but I think that you are ignoring basic realities, here. I read the whole report, in order to be as close to its essence as possible. I can't let you say that the idea of "a new pearl harbor" that would acelerate what they think are necesary changes is not in the report. Please consider the following points.

I. What the report calls for, as the title "rebuilding America's defenses" suggest, is a dramatic increase in military expenditures, which the report think were slashed in the post-cold war era.



You obviously didn't read it very carefully. Two key points:

1) It calls for an increase in funding to research and development for information technologies, which it predicts will become key componants of future warfare. If the US does not invest in developing these technologies it will get left behind.

2) The types of warfare the USA is currently committed to in Afghanistan and Iraq is EXACTLY the sort of warfare the PNAC explicitly states needs to be avoided at ALL COSTS.

-Gumboot
 
I don't buy this. The middle-east is not the west's fault. It's the middle-east's fault. They made the place a mess themselves. The only reason it even affects us is oil. We need it, they have it. Without the oil, they are nothing.

So we get constantly dragged back into the middle-east to try and fix THEIR problems, so we can have our safe supply of oil.

We need to secure a new primary natural resource, so we can cut the ties to the middle-east that are dragging us into their mess, then let them destroy themselves.

Look at the Balkans. The Balkans is the Middle-east without oil. Sure, we might dabble a bit when people get massacred, and the Europeans had a vested interest because it's on their doorstep, but the mess in the Balkans hasn't caused major problems for the rest of the world since 1918.

-Gumboot

For the middle-east: the West did not force both Israel and Palestine to make peace. Only the US had and have this power to stop the colonization of the West Bank; similarly the Palestinians must be forced to stop using attacks on Israeli civilians as a mean of negociation. But overall jus imagine a second the middle east without this cancer.

For the development of a new natural ressource: sure, stop the pro-oil lobby, become leader in renewable ressources. This is obvious, and was not done. Pay the price for this.

Balkans: Europeans f***ed up and the US had to intervene, but now it's looking pretty good, so it shows you how conflicts can be resolved.

Gumboot, do you agree with my post about the PNAC report?

thx
 
i dont think this is the first question to answer. always, first come realise investigation need, *then* say who do.
if i can choose i think international judge and investigators do.
independent of usa gouvernment. more so than 911 commission was.
maybe you think is hopeless, but i dont like this attitude.
i dont understand why so many people dont like new investigation here.
i think saying is too expensive is not really a good argument.
because now we spend so many time (and money) speaking about this everywhere, sooo many people. so many have question. not only conspiracy people. i dont understand why not investigate. because it is cheaper after some years believe me. i think only people scared of investigation dont want it.

So what happened Cornelius? Did your co-worker manage to convince you? I thought you were trying to get him to change his mind, but now you are telling us we need a new investigation.
What's the story Cornelius?
 
if i can choose i think international judge and investigators do.
independent of usa gouvernment.
Stop. Just stop. Allowing international investigators to have power of subopena and the ability to sequester evidence is not a power the Congress has to give. The first step would be to have us ammend our constitution to allow this to happen. Try thinking within the realm of possibility, please.
more so than 911 commission was.
maybe you think is hopeless, but i dont like this attitude.
Please return to planet Earth. The US has a limited government. We cannot make laws establishing a state sponsored religion, and we cannot grant the powers of government to foreign bodies.
i dont understand why so many people dont like new investigation here.
i think saying is too expensive is not really a good argument.
I think you should pay for this new investigation. How much do you have in your checkbook?
 
1. New Investigation: I use to think this would be ok, I mean what harm could it cost...but that is just it...cost. A new investigation would cost more money, and I would wager the cost of said investigation that the truthers, no matter what, would not be satisfied with the results unless it resulted in BUSH and the Cabal hanging in the gallows.

2. WMDs: You have got to be kidding right. You think the USA, the country with the most nuclear weapons, and the best technology to create and use them, couldn't fool the UN inspectors that they found said weapons and some makeshift labs to create said weapons. That is just silly. If the NEOCON Cabal existed, and had carried out 9/11, then we would have found WMDs, in abundance, and the general public would be FAR MORE supportive of the war in iraq right now.

TAM:)
 
Perry Logan Truth Squad Strikes Again

[=PerryLogan;2375885]"The documents removed were copies; the National Archives retained the originals."

You've definitely been hanging around conspiracy guys too much. Their hypothesis is precisely that Clinton was in on it, helping to protect Osama, etc.

Unfortunately, Clinton hadn't seen any of Alex Jones' videos:

It's like this: the most incompetent admnistration in U.S. history let 9/11 happen through sheer ineptitude. The Republican Congress helped out by blocking Clinton's anti-terrorism proposals.

If you like 9/11, thank a Republican.

Yes, Perry, Bush's eight months in office contibuted more than Bubba's eight-year daze. Nah, you don't think like a twoofer. By the way, tell us more about the "criminality" that led to the jihadist attacks.

Sandy Berger's crime, largely ignored by the Democrats' media lapdogs, was the theft of documents that may have contained revelations embarrassing for the Clintons. Perry is, of course, lying when he pretends that everyone knows the contents of the stolen documents. A few people know what was in those documents and they decided that the contents were important enough to warrant destroying them.

Perry, for some reason, neglected to reply when I last responded to his laundry list of Clinton-worshiping fantasies. I'll give him another shot.

Here is my response to Perry's lunacy, posted last week:

Wow! I guess the reason Clinton did nothing in response to real al Qaeda attacks is that he was exhausted from all this imaginary stuff.

I love the one about Bubba detecting and destroying al Qaeda cells in over twenty countries (C'mon, Perry, you can do better--it's all "pretend" stuff anyway. Just say "hundreds of countries." What the hell's the difference?).

"PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts."

Gee, that was some policy, wasn't it? The people who kept attacking us were undoubtedly impressed.

By the way, Perry, a few of us might notice that if Clinton had really done some of the things you conjure up, you wouldn't have supported him.

I do applaud Clinton's efforts to assassinate bin Laden. It's a shame that when they had Osama in their sights, he couldn't interrupt his golf game long enough to order pulling the trigger.

From Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years, by Rich Lowry:

"The irony was that Powell wanted a larger military that would do less, while the Clinton team wanted a smaller military that would do much more, as it engaged in humanitarian interventions the world over.

The military roughly declined by half in the 1990s, with the Army getting sliced from eighteen divisions to ten and the Air Force from thirty-six fighter wings to twenty (a total of fifteen wings were used just in the first Gulf War). Whenever the Clinton administration bragged about reducing the deficit or the federal workforce, it was effectively talking about how it had cut the military. Alan Blinder and Janet Yellen write of the 1997 balanced budget negotiations, 'discretionary spending had already declined roughly 11 percent in real terms between 1992 and 1997. Further progress would be difficult because the entire cut had, to that point, come from the defense budget.' This, not the 1993 budget deal, was Clinton's big contribution to deficit reduction--taken directly out of the hide of America's military."

The chapters in Lowry's book on the Middle East and Terrorism paint a picture that sharply contradicts Perry's fantasies, which appear to have been inspired by the radical kids who write Al Franken's books.

I voted for Bush because the Democratic Party simply does not get the threat of Islamic fundamentalism. If I ever felt the need to fabricate glowing accomplishments for Bush, I'd lie down for a while and then find another hobby. I supported the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, but I now fear that the enterprise has been badly bungled. Perry lives in the conspiracists' world where everything is either good and noble and capable of perfect execution, or profoundly evil and done for the basest motives. In the world we are stuck with, sometimes a commendable vision gets spoiled by contact with reality. Neither Perry nor his intellectual kin, the 9/11 fantasists, can comprehend that the Bushies were just government officials who thought they were doing the right thing. They didn't launch two wars to line the pockets of Dick Cheney's cronies. I wish I could have enjoyed a good laugh at the expense of the hate-America left, but, unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. If I were Perry, I'd be spinning fantastic yarns showing that it did. I'm not Perry, however. I'm deeply disappointed with our efforts to introduce democracy to the Middle East.

The Democrats are still demagogic hypocrites who are unable to think beyond transient political advantage.
 

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