911 commission destroys mmoore's F/911

[Lothian]

Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

moore skillfully chose his words so that findings like these wouldnt make him into a complete jackass, .

Shame you didn't learn from him.

 

[wjousts]

Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

And King Henry did not murder Thomas Becket.

Questions

• What purpose did the mentioning of the Bin Laden family serve?
  
• What purpose did the mentioning of the Saudi connections serve?
  
• What is Moore's thesis?

Well, it's not that that Saudi's funded 9/11 [Moore never claimed this]. It's not that members of the bin Laden family and the Saudi royals were allowed to fly when nobody else was [again Moore didn't claim this], and it's not that Bush knew about 9/11 beforehand [Moore certainly didn't claim this either]. If you thought that was what Moore was saying then I suggest you go watch the movie again (or for the first time). So what's the point of NTW's post?

The way I see it, the [several] thesis of the film is that:
* Bush's connection to Saudi Arabia put the country at risk (by turning a blind eye) prior to 9/11.
* During the attack Bush was completely helpless and failed to show any leadership (reading "My Pet Goat").
* Post 9/11 the war in Afganistan was poorly conducted allowing bin Laden and the Tailban to escape.
* The war in Iraq was a distraction from the war on terror and was always planned even before 9/11.
* The attack on Iraq was conducted under false pretenses and was a waste of blood and treasure.
* The Bush administration has exploited fear since 9/11 to manipulate the American public
* All of the above have had real consequences for real people

These are what I believe Michael Moore's take home messages were supposed to be. Right wing talking heads have been trying to talk the film up as something more inflammatory than it really is by claiming that it says or implies things that it really doesn't.

 

[wjousts]

Isn't this contradicted by the Commision?

No, the 9/11 commission only dispells the idea that the bin Ladens and Saudi royals flew out of the country when nobody else could (something that, AGAIN Moore never claimed). That doesn't mean that that is the only case of "special treatment" that may or may not have occured over the course of many years or the Bush family in positions of power.

 

[c0rbin]

Most people I have heard who went to see the film evently end up implying that Bush new in advance about the bombings and that it was used as a pretext for profit in central Asia and the Middle East.

I have yet to see the film. For those here who have, is this view of it accurate?

 

[aerocontrols]

Moore never said they did

Here's what Moore says:

No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens. It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."

From the 9/11 report, page 329:

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001.[24] To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.[25]

So the bolded sentence is just flat-out wrong, unless Moore has information that the 9/11 commission didn't get. The Bin Ladens were given permission to take a chartered flight no sooner than anyone else. The rest of the paragraph is standard fare for Moore. Distortive, but if you parse it you'll find it's accurate.

Edit:

Here's what Moore actually said:

MOORE (VO): Not even Ricky Martin could fly. But really, who wanted to fly? [A dog walked by the police in an airport terminal.] No one. [Osama bin Laden.] Except the bin Ladens.

MOORE (VO): It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. [Listing of flights to Saudi Arabia.] At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes [Close Up: “SAUDIA ARABIA”] carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the US after September 13th. [CU: Scan down long list of flights, focusing on the 9/13 date.] In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.

I took the original quote from a site defending Moore.

 

[jj]

Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

And King Henry did not murder Thomas Becket.


Not personally!


Questions

• What purpose did the mentioning of the Bin Laden family serve?
  
• What purpose did the mentioning of the Saudi connections serve?
  
• What is Moore's thesis?

Well, the binLaden family is fact, but that doesn't necessarily indict anyone else in his family.

I haven't seen the movie, so I have no idea what purpose was in evidence.

I don't know what Moore's thesis is, he's a demigog just like O'Rielly. They two should marry each other and move to Haiti. Or somewhere.

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

Not personally!

"Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

 

[KelvinG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

I find the way Moore used "facts" to convey his message to be strikingly similar to the way Bush used "facts" to convey his justification for invading Iraq.

I guess Moore could just claim he was given faultly information about some of the claims he makes in the film, and thus, he can in no way be held personally accountable.

 

[wjousts]

Here's what Moore says:

Do you even read this stuff before you post it?

MOORE (VO): Not even Ricky Martin could fly. But really, who wanted to fly? [A dog walked by the police in an airport terminal.] No one. [Osama bin Laden.] Except the bin Ladens.

MOORE (VO): It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. [Listing of flights to Saudi Arabia.] At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes [Close Up: “SAUDIA ARABIA”] carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the US after September 13th. [CU: Scan down long list of flights, focusing on the 9/13 date.] In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001.[24] To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.[25]

Or do you simply not understand the concept of before and after?

 

[Nie Trink Wasser]

moore wants to convey the idea that the Bin Ladens were given special treatment in order to protect monetary interests and since being related to Osama, were more dangerous that the other people on the planes.

what makes that a flaccid idea is that the man Moore defends in his film (Richard Clarke) is the ONLY MAN that approved those flights saying that there was nothing suspicious.

moore's movie is trash....thats the point.

 

[crimresearch]

Moore is now claiming on his website that the part about the administration allowing certain people to fly 'in the days after' 9/11 doesn't mean 'before the restrictions were lifted'.

He has similar semantic deflections on other criticisms of his facts, which leads us full circle to the question that has been dodged repeatedly on this forum, what was the point of saying those things about Bin laden family members, and special treatment, and members of Congress not sending their children to Iraq, if none of it was meant to convey any particular impression?

Did people really need Moore to tell them the shocking and hidden truth that someone flew out on an airplane *weeks* after 9/11? Was there an expose in there somewhere that members of Congress cannot sign up their grown children for involuntary military service? Does he alone possess the secret knowledge that Osama is no longer openly living with the Bin Laden family?
Are we just now being allowed to learn about the existence of the nefarious Prince Bandar?

Is any of that worth the price of a ticket?

Or is Moore simply aware, as any good carney should be, that people love to throw their money away to be titillated, and you don't need facts for that, just window dressing?

"And two to take 'em"
Second part of a very famous quote.

 

[RandFan]

And remember that it was Richard Clarke who personally approved of the flights. So why the flight footage at all?

 

[Cleon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

"Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

Well, not the church, they'll just move them to another parish and try to cover it up...

 

[RandFan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 911 commission report destroys mmoore's F/911

Well, not the church, they'll just move them to another parish and try to cover it up...

Well that made my day.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

I saw F911 and enjoyed it. To use and old chestnut, "to me, it was preaching to the choir".

If the right-wing zombies insist on bringing up (and doing a dang bad job of refuting it), Moore's F911, that's fine with me.

Charlie (keep it on the front-burner!) Monoxide

 

[aerocontrols]

Do you even read this stuff before you post it?






Or do you simply not understand the concept of before and after?

I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make my post clear. I have two quotes of Moore's movie. The first (incorrect one) has a false statement. When I went checking to make sure the first quote was correct, I discovered that it was not, and posted the correct quote, which does not have a false statement.

I thought it would be obvious that the change to the bolded sentence indicated what I meant.

 

[wjousts]

I'm sorry. Perhaps I didn't make my post clear. I have two quotes of Moore's movie. The first (incorrect one) has a false statement. When I went checking to make sure the first quote was correct, I discovered that it was not, and posted the correct quote, which does not have a false statement.

I thought it would be obvious that the change to the bolded sentence indicated what I meant.

Sorry, but you originally posted:

No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens. It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country."

So you were still wrong even with you original, incorrect quote.

 

[aerocontrols]

Sorry, but you originally posted:

So you were still wrong even with you original, incorrect quote.

Nope.

The original, incorrect, quote says: No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

After Sept 13 anyone in a charter aircraft was allowed to fly, including the Bin Ladens.


MattJ

 

[wjousts]

Nope.

The original, incorrect, quote says: No one was allowed to fly... except the Bin Ladens.

After Sept 13 anyone in a charter aircraft was allowed to fly, including the Bin Ladens.


MattJ

No try again:

At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th.

Even your incorrect statement says the bin Ladens flew out after september 13th and this was not disputed by the quote from the 9/11 commission.

 

[RandFan]

I'll try again,

What was the purpose of detailing the information about the flights in F911?