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Merged 2024 Election Thread

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I'm unconvinced of their error bars when every poll is somebody who answers the phone when an unknown number shows up....which pretty much excludes Millenials and Gen Z.

A sample that didn't include Millenials and Gen Z would not be representative, and reputable polling companies work very hard to ensure that their samples are representative. That's why they also use online polls, focus groups and in person polling.
 
A sample that didn't include Millenials and Gen Z would not be representative, and reputable polling companies work very hard to ensure that their samples are representative. That's why they also use online polls, focus groups and in person polling.

Focus groups?
 
To poke at a round up of things of slightly indirect relevance -

It was a TERRIBLE week for Trump and a GREAT week for America: Saturday's GNR

To poke at a couple of those things that are likely of more relevance here -

The economy's growth is stronger than it was at this time with Trump, like it has been for a while. Consumer sentiment is rising, apparently meaning that the "vibesecession" may be over, albeit long overdue. Inflation continues to drop. Jobs Market is still fairly good. Wage growth is still good. Stocks hit another new record. Crime rates went down notably. Support for legal abortion continues to rise. The deficit is dramatically smaller.

Biden's done well.
 
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Whether T****y wins or not will be a function of whether the non-elected repug machinery is willing to go to bat for him a third time and rig the elections at state level.

Remember the man has not legitimately won a single election he has stood in, and he won't in November either.
 
What wasn't legitimate about his 2016 victory?

To hazard a guess, the part where Trump actively worked to use illegal methods to win would count as a good start? For example, repeatedly ordering his campaign staff to get him illegally obtained Hillary's e-mails from Russia for use as a political weapon. Whether Russia actually had them in the first place or not is largely immaterial there, even if the Trump-Russia problems are much larger than just that and also play into the reasons to doubt the legitimacy of Trump's win. Also of note in the illegal actions direction is the Stormy Daniels stuff that ended up with his intermediary in jail, but not Trump somehow.

Here's an opinion article back from 2017 that touches on much more, really, though.

One year on, Donald Trump is still an illegitimate president

It is unlikely that the presidential election will be overturned, but that is not an argument against the case that it should be, writes Rebecca Solnit


Really short version? There were a lot of problems of various kinds when it comes to how legitimate Trump's win actually was, including systematic ones directly caused by long term Republican shenanigans.

To touch on a number of things -

But Ari Berman of Mother Jones recently reported that in Wisconsin, where Trump was supposed to have won by less than 23,000 of the nearly three million votes cast, as many as 45,000 voters, particularly black voters, were prevented from casting a ballot by voter identification laws designed to disenfranchise them.

Berman cites another study suggesting that in total 200,000 more voters would have participated in the 2016 election had nothing changed since 2012 in how elections were run in Wisconsin, and of course these voters “skewed more African American and more Democrat”.

Even those who were able to vote may not have their votes counted. A few weeks after the election, journalist Gabriel Sherman reported “that in Wisconsin, Clinton received 7% fewer votes in counties that relied on electronic-voting machines compared with counties that used optical scanners and paper ballots. Based on this statistical analysis, Clinton may have been denied as many as 30,000 votes,” significantly more than Trump’s margin of victory.

Further, in many swing states, including Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, there were extraordinary discrepancies between the exit polls and the vote tallies. Though it’s common to regard the latter as more reliable than the former, in other parts of the world, exit polls are treated as important verifications of the outcome.

As Alan Gilbert wrote in the Daily Beast: “In Germany, Canada, and many other countries, an initial exit poll is released. And then paper ballots are counted. Where this procedure is used, there is no controversy. If the election is very close, the ballots can easily be recounted. Further, since 2000, the US State Department has used initial exit polling to test the fairness of elections in 14 ‘transitional’ democracies.”

Clinton would have won the election overwhelmingly had she won those states. Perhaps she did. Shortly after the election, Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman reported: “In 24 of 28 states, unadjusted exit polls also showed Clinton with vote counts significantly higher than the final official outcome. The likelihood of this happening in an election that is not rigged are in the realm of virtual statistical impossibility.”

<snip>

Pennsylvania blocked a recount by mounting outrageous obstacles to the process. Wisconsin prevented a hand recount that might have found machine errors; and the Michigan recount was stopped after enormous errors were detected. The Republican party appeared to be frantic to prevent us from finding out what really happened.

Republicans, with some notable exceptions, have also been eager to prevent any investigation of Russian intervention in the election and collusion between Trump’s associates and the Putin regime.

The evidence for it was substantial and diverse before the election, some of it circumstantial – the Trump team members with strong ties to and clandestine meetings with Russian officials, the odd things Trump himself, Roger Stone, and others said about Vladimir Putin, the Russian government, about WikiLeaks, and about the hacks of the DNC.

<snip>

In June 2017, Bloomberg News issued a little-noticed report that voter databases in 39 states, far more than previously believed, had been hacked by Russian operatives before the 2016 election: “In Illinois, investigators found evidence that cyber intruders tried to delete or alter voter data. The hackers accessed software designed to be used by poll workers on Election Day, and in at least one state accessed a campaign finance database.” Did these incursions alter the outcome? We don’t really know.

You don’t have to factor in the Russian intervention or the Trump team’s collusion to regard the election as fatally corrupted. But while the corruption of the voting system seems to have been an achievement of Republican strategists working for decades, the unprecedented role of a foreign government does give an entirely different basis to regard it as illegitimate. As we learn more about the latter, it behooves us not to forget the former, which is as grave a blow to the credibility of the election.

There's a lot of reasons to question the legitimacy of Trump's win from a lot of real angles, in short, and a lot of somewhat shakier ones that nevertheless warranted real scrutiny - scrutiny that was blocked to a rather notable extent by the Republican Party. That very much includes Trump's delvings into the illegal, but isn't even remotely limited to such.

There really is reason for how easily Trump's Stolen Election narrative spread, honestly. It's not like it's even remotely a secret that Republicans have been actively working to rig and cheat for quite a long while now. So the question of why wouldn't the devilish Democrats be doing the same and just managed to outcheat the righteous Republicans in 2020 can easily resonate with those who have been trained to have Pavlovian disgust/fear reactions to Democrats and liberals. It also helps explain why so many Republicans react the way they do to actual evidence of Republican shenanigans. They come into things expecting Republican shenanigans, all their rhetoric aside, and voted Republican anyways. Details of the shenanigans thus doesn't sway them much.
 
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No, that would be PitPat when he said "I don't think Biden has dementia, yet,' and I questioned him about the 'yet'.

Biden's alleged dementia/cognitive skills have been discussed ad nauseum in ISF especially by some of our "progressive" members who have, frankly, dissed him since he said he was running in 2019. I suggest you go read through the threads on the 2020 primaries.



Everyone has moments of incoherence when our stream of thought gets side-tracked or we change thought mid-stream. It's normal. It's the frequency and how we handle it that makes the difference. When Biden does it, he gets back on track. When Trump does it, he just continues rambling.



Of course he has less physical energy...he's 81, for Christ's sake. But that is not the topic; it's his cognitive abilities that are being questioning.


Actually, it's not low hanging fruit. Someone with dementia couldn't do that. They couldn't concentrate for 20 minutes; they'd lose track of what they were saying and become monotone or start using inflections inappropriately. Inflections reflect meaning and understanding just as much as words do.

Trump has repeatedly shown that he cannot stay on script/read from a teleprompter for that long without going off on some rant or saying something stupid.

I actually supported Biden on his first presidential run. Times have changed. We are where we are. And still not even sure where that is. And other countries are looking at us.

Again, I'll support anybody who can defeat Trump. And again, I don't think people truly understands how serious that can be.

Biden. fine. Best thing going so far.
 
I actually supported Biden on his first presidential run. Times have changed. We are where we are. And still not even sure where that is. And other countries are looking at us.

Again, I'll support anybody who can defeat Trump. And again, I don't think people truly understands how serious that can be.

Biden. fine. Best thing going so far.

I'm still asking why the 'yet'?

Yes, times have changed: Trump has gotten worse and is a criminal and civil defendant in several trials. Under Biden, our economy is doing much better as Aridas' post below shows.

Other countries have always looked at us. Nothing new there.
 
To hazard a guess, the part where Trump actively worked to use illegal methods to win would count as a good start? For example, repeatedly ordering his campaign staff to get him illegally obtained Hillary's e-mails from Russia for use as a political weapon. Whether Russia actually had them in the first place or not is largely immaterial there, even if the Trump-Russia problems are much larger than just that and also play into the reasons to doubt the legitimacy of Trump's win. Also of note in the illegal actions direction is the Stormy Daniels stuff that ended up with his intermediary in jail, but not Trump somehow.

Here's an opinion article back from 2017 that touches on much more, really, though.

One year on, Donald Trump is still an illegitimate president

It is unlikely that the presidential election will be overturned, but that is not an argument against the case that it should be, writes Rebecca Solnit


Really short version? There were a lot of problems of various kinds when it comes to how legitimate Trump's win actually was, including systematic ones directly caused by long term Republican shenanigans.

To touch on a number of things -



There's a lot of reasons to question the legitimacy of Trump's win from a lot of real angles, in short, and a lot of somewhat shakier ones that nevertheless warranted real scrutiny - scrutiny that was blocked to a rather notable extent by the Republican Party. That very much includes Trump's delvings into the illegal, but isn't even remotely limited to such.

There really is reason for how easily Trump's Stolen Election narrative spread, honestly. It's not like it's even remotely a secret that Republicans have been actively working to rig and cheat for quite a long while now. So the question of why wouldn't the devilish Democrats be doing the same and just managed to outcheat the righteous Republicans in 2020 can easily resonate with those who have been trained to have Pavlovian disgust/fear reactions to Democrats and liberals. It also helps explain why so many Republicans react the way they do to actual evidence of Republican shenanigans. They come into things expecting Republican shenanigans, all their rhetoric aside, and voted Republican anyways. Details of the shenanigans thus doesn't sway them much.

And all this ^.
 
I'm still asking why the 'yet'?

Yes, times have changed: Trump has gotten worse and is a criminal and civil defendant in several trials. Under Biden, our economy is doing much better as Aridas' post below shows.

Other countries have always looked at us. Nothing new there.

Trump is deranged, Biden is not. As I've said before, got a better candidate, right here right now? He's not Mitch McConnell kind of freezing. If that a good thing. But things happen so that's why it's so important for a VP. He'll probably be okay for another term.

I may have said before that this is the most important presidential election in our lifetime. They say that every time, and probably true during the Kennedy years. But this one is very, very serious. He'd be like a child with a magic wand. Almost a Twilight Zone episode, but real.
 
Trump is deranged, Biden is not. As I've said before, got a better candidate, right here right now? He's not Mitch McConnell kind of freezing. If that a good thing. But things happen so that's why it's so important for a VP. He'll probably be okay for another term.

I may have said before that this is the most important presidential election in our lifetime. They say that every time, and probably true during the Kennedy years. But this one is very, very serious. He'd be like a child with a magic wand. Almost a Twilight Zone episode, but real.

Absolutely. Trump is dangerously mentally ill and getting worse.
 
What wasn't legitimate about his 2016 victory?

That he won. Republicans are expected to lose and when they win despite expectations it's illegitimate. Remember Hillary was supposed to be the most qualified candidate in history (by those who don't know history).

I do love all the people who will say that questioning 2020's election is treason, while questioning 2016, 2004 and 2000 is just fine and dandy. Questioning any of those (including 2020) is not treason; it's moronic. You're welcome.
 
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I actually supported Biden on his first presidential run. Times have changed. We are where we are. And still not even sure where that is. And other countries are looking at us.

Again, I'll support anybody who can defeat Trump. And again, I don't think people truly understands how serious that can be.

Biden. fine. Best thing going so far.

It's too late now to change but wow do I wish Biden had not run. A lot of the opposition to Biden is about him--and not just on the age thing. Suppose Newsom was the candidate in an open primary; he could more deftly thread the needle on Israel/Gaza and keep the Arab vote. At this point Biden seems to have written it off, which is going to be a huge problem in Michigan. (Don't get me wrong, Biden has been right on Israel/Gaza, it was a minefield for him no matter what he did).

If you asked me to bet right now I'd take Trump straight up. And while I have never voted for Trump before (Johnson/Abstained), this time around:

I might actually vote for the old man.
;)
 
I do love all the people who will say that questioning 2020's election is treason, while questioning 2016, 2004 and 2000 is just fine and dandy. Questioning any of those (including 2020) is not treason; it's moronic. You're welcome.

“Questioning” 2020 is the least of it. The actual clear attempts to first cheat by attempting to strongarn the governor of Georgia, then rally his supporters to stop the vote being rubber-stamped in Congress by having them invade the Capitol Building. That is what people are rightly concerned about. Trump fans like to pretend that what Gore or Kerry or Clinton did were the same, but they were not remotely the same.
 
I do love all the people who will say that questioning 2020's election is treason, while questioning 2016, 2004 and 2000 is just fine and dandy. Questioning any of those (including 2020) is not treason; it's moronic. You're welcome.

No mention of 2008 or 2012 in there? I guess you GOPpers are so full or honesty and light that none of you would ever question those elections. You all just ever-so graciously conceded the election.

Yeah, right.
 
“Questioning” 2020 is the least of it. The actual clear attempts to first cheat by attempting to strongarn the governor of Georgia, then rally his supporters to stop the vote being rubber-stamped in Congress by having them invade the Capitol Building. That is what people are rightly concerned about. Trump fans like to pretend that what Gore or Kerry or Clinton did were the same, but they were not remotely the same.

Indeed. It's not and never was the questioning part that was treason. It was the treason part that accompanied the questioning and the obvious bad faith being employed by the "questioners." Seriously, when a lot of the "questioning" was done on the expressed basis of deeply alarming things like "the counting room was warm" and "someone looked at me" (which were expressed to Republican applause), that's obvious bad faith, right there, seemingly done for a deeply unpatriotic cause when more context is added, on top of that. The fake electors scheme was pretty much open treason. The plot to try to create cause to invoke the Insurrection Act was pretty clearly treason, too. With that said, I do recall a phenomena of all that being made into a shorthand where questioning the election was described as treason by some, given the very strong connection between all that bad faith and treasonous activity and the overall questioning situation. That was only after the bad faith side had been well proven to be pushing a grotesque caricature, though.

Also, reasonable questioning is one thing. Constructive criticism is one thing. Unreasonable demands are another. Things were close and a recount was triggered and completed properly? That's reasonable action and definitely doesn't count as refusing to accept the results of an election. Repeated recounts because one party can't accept that they lost to the point that they utterly breach security and then select utterly unqualified vote counters selected for overtly political reasons who handle things in a predictably untrustworthy manner? That's unreasonable.
 
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“Questioning” 2020 is the least of it. The actual clear attempts to first cheat by attempting to strongarn the governor of Georgia, then rally his supporters to stop the vote being rubber-stamped in Congress by having them invade the Capitol Building. That is what people are rightly concerned about. Trump fans like to pretend that what Gore or Kerry or Clinton did were the same, but they were not remotely the same.

True that. Just chiding the other election deniers, who get a free ride around here.
 
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