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2012?

1...O.K. Up to now, I have seen no real evidence of that, but I am willing to look at the evidence that leads you to that conclusion. Again, I'll ask: is there a website that summarizes part or all of your position - what is the URL?

2...I have a bit of a problem with that last statement. Hancock (et al) believe that the significance of the Giza pyramids is completely dependent on their being built in 10,450 B.C.E. It is that time period, they claim, in which Orion was at its lowest point during the precessional cycle......

1...My info is from the literature.

2...The sphinx points to the position of Orion on the horizon about 10450 BC, and where Orion will in due course again appear to start another precessional cycle. Opinions vary on the Giza pyramids construction date.
 
1...My info is from the literature.

2...The sphinx points to the position of Orion on the horizon about 10450 BC, and where Orion will in due course again appear to start another precessional cycle. Opinions vary on the Giza pyramids construction date.

But even if all that is completely accurate, what does it have to do with 2012? The precession cycle is 25,765 years. If the cycle started in 10450 BC, then we are about, but not precisely, half way through it. Why is 2012 significant?
 
1...My info is from the literature.

I read the wikipedia page on Graham Hancock and I see that he has made a few errors in his calculations. My ability to place credence in his theories is weakening.

The wikipedia page also points out that...
..in approximately 11,600 BC, according to Hancock, a sudden cataclysm shifted Antarctica to the south by about 2000 miles. Hancock feels that prior to this event Antarctica may have supported a human civilization whose habitations, including cities, are now buried in Antarctic ice.
 
But even if all that is completely accurate, what does it have to do with 2012? The precession cycle is 25,765 years. If the cycle started in 10450 BC, then we are about, but not precisely, half way through it. Why is 2012 significant?

The actual Earth years of the precession probably vary marginally, some estimates going as high as 25920.

Another inbuilt variant may be the Earth tilt of 23.5 degrees, thought to vary by up to 1.5 degrees either side over the very long precessional and longer periods.

Reading Hancock, page 248 in The Fingerprints Of The Gods, 2012 AD appears to align the Earth North-South pole with Polaris as the maximum 'eastern' swing of the Earth based northern hemisphere observation of the precessional cycle.
 
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The actual Earth years of the precession probably vary marginally, some estimates going as high as 25920.

Another inbuilt variant may be the Earth tilt of 23.5 degrees, thought to vary by up to 1.5 degrees either side over the very long precessional and longer periods.

Reading Hancock, page 248 in The Fingerprints Of The Gods, 2012 AD appears to align the Earth North-South pole with Polaris as the maximum 'eastern' swing of the Earth based northern hemisphere observation of the precessional cycle.



I do not have the resources or the knowledge necessary to confirm those figures, but even if they are accurate to several decimal places, the question remains: so what? Even if it is the maximum "eastern swing" why will that have any effect at all on on Earth or its biosphere?
 
I do not have the resources or the knowledge necessary to confirm those figures, but even if they are accurate to several decimal places, the question remains: so what? Even if it is the maximum "eastern swing" why will that have any effect at all on on Earth or its biosphere?

The standard orthodox astronomical physics are explained at length in chapter 28 of 'The Fingerprints Of The Gods', to show why there exist immense stresses between the Sun, Moon, and Earth in the precessional cycle: both details and context are there dealt with.
 
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The standard orthodox astronomical physics are explained at length in chapter 28 of 'The Fingerprints Of The Gods', to show why there exist immense stresses between the Sun, Moon, and Earth in the precessional cycle: both details and context are there dealt with.

That book is currently checked out of my local library. I may make an effort to have a look at it. I am not really that motivated to read a book by a person who claims that someone built pyramids on Mars.
 
That book is currently checked out of my local library. I may make an effort to have a look at it. I am not really that motivated to read a book by a person who claims that someone built pyramids on Mars.

Yes, such ideas can complicate things somewhat, but the very greatest minds are often right and wrong. For example, consider the comments by Leon Brillouin on Albert Einstein and relativity. If Hancock is right about the precession that is what matters, even if he is wrong about some other things.
 
The Mayan Calander IS...

...the literal translation of Earth's, or rather our Sun's path around the center of our Galaxy...

The Mayan Calander is a record of the our "solar cycle", and what we might expect 'when'.

Now 2012...is a very interesting time, it denotes a realignment with the true solar center, unobstructed by other galactic debris, and the "new order" to be set about.

WHAT this means exactly...who's to say. Maybe it means that Microsoft will release a robot that makes us all obsolete, and then we go into sci-fi living...OR this will lead the globe to come to a conslusive agreement about something...who knows!?!?

Our Calander notes 12 months, in a year, 365 days a year.

The Mayans noted AGES, more akin to our centuries, and their predictions proved only too accurate, even to their own demise. Self-sfullfilling, you say? Maybe, but their own history bore out a much long 'accurate pattern', in their calander.

I like to believe that crisis=danger+opportunity...meaning that this event, or lack thereof, will be only what 'we' make of it.

The day, whatever that day is, could pass as unnoticed as my last birthday.

In any case, as your King, I just want you to know I am in it with you. If you guys listen and follow me, we'll build a brave new world, and I'll put down my crown just as soon as we have elections well under way. ;)
 
Now 2012...is a very interesting time, it denotes a realignment with the true solar center, unobstructed by other galactic debris, and the "new order" to be set about.

WHAT this means exactly...who's to say.

If you cannot tell us what effect this date will have, can you tell us exactly what is realigning with what? Also, what is galactic debris?

The Mayans noted AGES, more akin to our centuries, and their predictions proved only too accurate, even to their own demise.


How's chances of your sharing these predictions?
 
Example: My Great Grandfather, rest in peace, was an old fashioned man. He disliked the Native Americans because he thought they were "stupid".

I hear people regularly, when the topic is being discussed, say "The ______ were retards... Why would someone sacrifice themselves for bird-people gods?!"

You and I move in very different circles. I have never come across anyone who has expressed anything like that. After reading your post, I do believe that there are such people, but I am left with the question: how prevalent are these folks.
 
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Offer to trade your coworker rice and water on the 11th for his soon to be unless car, computer and paper currency.
 
The standard orthodox astronomical physics are explained at length in chapter 28 of 'The Fingerprints Of The Gods', to show why there exist immense stresses between the Sun, Moon, and Earth in the precessional cycle: both details and context are there dealt with.

After seeing the resurrected thread, I was inspired to get Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods. I have just read chapter 28 and I think Hancock is overestimating the stresses between the Sun, Moon and Earth. The book was published in 1995 and on page 231 the author says

A conjunction of five planets that can be expected to have profound gravitational effects will take place on 5 May 2000 when Neptune, Uranus, Venus, Mercury, and Mars will align with the earth on the other side of the Sun, setting up a cosmic tug-of-war.

There were no observed "profound graviational effects."
So when the author goes on the claim that:

[M]odern astronomers who have charted the the Mayan date for the end of the Fifth Sun calculate that there will be a most peculiar arrangement of the planets at that time, indeed an arrangement so [sic] peculiar that 'it can only occur once every 45,200 years ... [sic] From this extraordinary pattern we might well expect an extraordinary effect.'

I see no reason to take his speculations to be useful or accurate predictions.
. . . . . . .

Reading Hancock, page 248 in The Fingerprints Of The Gods, 2012 AD appears to align the Earth North-South pole with Polaris as the maximum 'eastern' swing of the Earth based northern hemisphere observation of the precessional cycle.

Again, so what? An imaginary line extended from the Earth's axis points at a star 430 light years away. So what? Having the axis point in a particular direction does not create more stress than if were pointing in another direction.
 
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Ladewig (I realize you're not the proponent of this nonsense, but since you have the book, I'll ask you), are these "modern astronomers" referred to by name in the book, or just collectively?

And, under the circumstances, shouldn't we be consulting "post-modern astronomers" instead?
 
The best way to get a take on it is to read the 'precession' literature.
It seems a particular star group is a space-time marker for Earth based observation of the limit of the precessional swing of about 25920 years.
"Hamlet's Mill" - ISBN 0-87923-215-3 discusses it in some detail.
The ancients seemed to know about, on which you may find "Homer's Secret Iliad" ISBN 0-7195-5780-1 of interest.
Astronomical science is very familiar with it.
There are many 'views' on its relevance, significance, and value: Take your pick.
Obviously, precession makes Earth line up with some particular star group approximately every 15 minutes, so to put any significance in this particular particular stargroup, you'd have to show that it was different in any important way from any other particular star group.

... In fact you might start with showing it is a star group at all, since most "star groups" are only groups when viewed from Earth perspective.

Hans
 
Yes, such ideas can complicate things somewhat, but the very greatest minds are often right and wrong. For example, consider the comments by Leon Brillouin on Albert Einstein and relativity. If Hancock is right about the precession that is what matters, even if he is wrong about some other things.
There is nothing mysterious about precession, it is a well-established and well-researched phenomenon.

The mystery is how some people can imagine that various features of Earth's axis or orbit aligning with some random star of the billions of stars in our galaxy has any particular meaning or effect. That is as absurd as astrology.

Likewise absurd is the idea that certain configurations of the solar system will lead to special stress situations.

First of all, it is relatively easy to verify; it is not too difficult to make a computersimulation if the solar system, and it has been done repeatedly.

Secondly, the interactions between the various bodies of the solar system is changing within quite narrow limits; otherwise the system would not be stable, and it it was not stable, it would not exist.

Finally, by far the majority of mass in the solar system is contained in the Sun and Jupiter. All the rest has only marginal influence on the system.

Hans
 
I order to be damn sure that the works of Graham Hancock are not, in any way shape or form, taken seriously I felt I had to come out of the shadows of Lurkendom and throw in my 2 cents.

Around the year 2000, still wet behind the ears and suckling on the teat of niavity, I was unfortunate enough to be taken in by his Atlantis Reborn TV programme. Oh the glory of Atlantis. Oh the deep knwoledge and understanding of our forebears. Oh those crafty alien helpers.

Fortunately a couple of weeks later I caught the follow up programme by Horizon debunking all of his so called 'evidence'.

It would appear that he will go to any lengths to cherry pick and shoe horn data into his model of a lost civilisation of Atlantis and his so magical date of 10000ish years ago in order to sell his books. Its all bollocks. Complete drivelling bollocks. My mind is soiled by the memory.

The horizon show: bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/atlantisrebornagain.shtml
And a transcript of same: bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/atlantisrebornagain_transcript.shtml

The bad archaeology site: (links down right hand side)badarchaeology.net/forgotten/civilisation.php

Skepticwiki: skepticwiki.org/index.php?title=Graham_Hancock&printable=yes

Precessional dating
Hancock’s own original contribution to pseudohistory is his idea of precessional dating. This assumes as axiomatic that many ancient monument complexes were laid out so as to represent constellations of stars, a notion for which there is not a shred of historical evidence.

Assuming this to be so, we take a set of ancient monuments (say, the pyramids) and decide what group of stars their layout most resembles (Orion’s belt).

The resemblance is not exact. This is where “precession” comes in. The arrangement of the constellations as seen from the Earth changes over time, and it is easy to obtain programs for your home computer which can show you what the night sky looked like at various times in the past. So in order to find when the pyramids were built, it is only necessary to find out when the pattern made by Orion’s belt in the sky is exactly the same as the pattern made by the pyramids on the ground.

Unfortunately, the answer is “never”, so you do the next best thing and find when the two patterns were the most similar. Then you conclude that this is when the pyramids were built.

If your conclusion disagrees with all the historical and archaeological evidence, you are to be congratulated --- you have proved all the evidence wrong. Hancock’s opinion of real archeological evidence is summed up by his extraordinary declaration that: “My reservations about radiocarbon will continue to apply to sites that are primarily megalithic and that […] demonstrate alignments older than the radiocarbon dates”. How graciously he agrees not to quarrel with carbon dating --- unless, by some chance, it should disagree with his own methods! So historians consider his method to be bunk, because it disagrees with all known history; and Hancock considers history to be bunk --- for exactly the same reason.

As with numerology, the problem with this method is that Hancock allows himself way too much latitude. For example:

In the case of the pyramids, he allows the pyramids to represent a mirror image of the constellation as it appears in the sky.
To stay with the example of the pyramids, he has a whole skyfull of stars to choose from, and only three buildings to match to any group of stars. It would be strange if he couldn't find a rough resemblance somewhere in the night sky.
He doesn’t even have to find a match to an entire constellation --- he claims that the pyramids represent Orion’s belt, but his scheme does not require him to find other monuments in the Giza burial complex representing Orion’s trousers.
The match he seeks can be as far back in time as he chooses, for his results do not have to agree with history or even with paleontology --- indeed, from his point of view, the greater the discrepancy, the better.
As we have noted, he is merely looking for a best fit, not an exact match. The best fit he can come up with for the pyramids is way below the accuracy with which each individual pyramid is aligned to the four points of the compass. Now if you allow the monumental architects any arbitrary degree of imprecision, then the method would be worthless even if the underlying axiom (that buildings represent stars) was perfectly correct.
He allows himself to discover in the East maps of constellations only traditional in Western astrology.
He feels free to pick and choose, from any complex of monuments, which are to represent stars and which are to be ignored. In the case of the pyramids, the reason for his choice is obvious and excusable: they are the most prominent objects in the Giza funary complex. In other cases, he seems to have gone by the principle that he can select buildings that resemble, in their layout, the stars of some constellation, while ignoring the ones that don’t agree with this interpretation.

skb
 
Ladewig (I realize you're not the proponent of this nonsense, but since you have the book, I'll ask you), are these "modern astronomers" referred to by name in the book, or just collectively?

And, under the circumstances, shouldn't we be consulting "post-modern astronomers" instead?

My bad. There was a endnote number next to the quote but I didn't notice it until you asked.

expect an extraordinary effect said:
Roberta S. Sklower, 'Predicting Planetary Positions', appendix to Frank Waters. Mexico Mystique, Sage Books, Chicago, 1975 p 285ff.

.
 
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