200 plus oil

gdnp, I agree with you that the IEA should be telling us all the truth, so should the government. Peak Oil for the US has already come and gone in 1970. The graphs of oil production in the US show that in 1970 more oil was produced in US than ever before and since then there has been less oil produced, even accounting for Prudoe Bay. The US Administration have known that peak oil is a fact and that you cant drill your way out of it because they tried to and failed. US now imports 3/4 of oil consumed. Why do you think US is spreading democracy in Iraq? (2nd largest crude oil reserves in the world). And making noises about how bad Iran is (3rd largest crude oil reserves in the world). And spreading democracy to Afganistan (which has a crucial oil pipeline from the Caspian). Why dont they tell everyone that we need to change our lifestyles significantly to use less oil. If they made a rule that everyone could only drive 4 cyclinder cars they would save more oil than there is in Iraq but "the american way of life is non-negotiable", we prefer to send our children off to fight a war than to give up our hummers!
 
Also, there may be a pride issue for the IEA... they have been telling us all not to worry there is plenty of oil for years now. Heads will roll when the truth becomes known...
 
The International Energy Agency are not able to report the truth about peak oil because if they did it would collapse the global economic system very quickly.
I don't know about that, but one reason neither they nor anyone else can accurately predict that is that a lot depends on the size of the remaining Saudi reserves, and that's something only the Saudis know, and they aren't saying. One thing that appears absolutely certain is that there will not be firm agreement on the point of global peak oil production until some time after it has occurred.

The elegance of Hubbert's Peak Oil concept is in its simplicity. You reach a point where oil production reaches a maximum no matter how many new holes you dig. It's an instance of the law of diminishing returns. When you start having trouble maintaining wellhead pressures, digging new holes won't help anyway unless those new holes are located in new oilfields, and new oilfields are getting pretty hard to come by. The term "proven reserves" gets abused a lot.
 
The following information has been taken from:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...ort&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au&client=firefox-a

PEAKING OF WORLD OIL PRODUCTION:
IMPACTS, MITIGATION, & RISK MANAGEMENT



Robert L. Hirsch, SAIC, Project Leader
Roger Bezdek, MISI
Robert Wendling, MISI

February 2005


I. INTRODUCTION

Oil is the lifeblood of modern civilization. It fuels the vast majority of the world’s
mechanized transportation equipment – Automobiles, trucks, airplanes, trains,
ships, farm equipment, the military, etc. Oil is also the primary feedstock for
many of the chemicals that are essential to modern life. This study deals with the
upcoming physical shortage of world conventional oil -- an event that has the
potential to inflict disruptions and hardships on the economies of every country.

The earth’s endowment of oil is finite and demand for oil continues to increase
with time. Accordingly, geologists know that at some future date, conventional oil
supply will no longer be capable of satisfying world demand. At that point world
conventional oil production will have peaked and begin to decline.

A number of experts project that world production of conventional oil could occur
in the relatively near future, as summarized in Table I-1.1 Such projections are
fraught with uncertainties because of poor data, political and institutional self-
interest, and other complicating factors. The bottom line is that no one knows
with certainty when world oil production will reach a peak,2 but geologists have
no doubt that it will happen.


Table I-1. Predictions of World Oil Production Peaking

Projected Date Source of Projection

2006-2007 Bakhitari
2007-2009 Simmons
After 2007 Skrebowski
Before 2009 Deffeyes
Before 2010 Goodstein
Around 2010 Campbell

After 2010 World Energy Council
2010-2020 Laherrere
2016 EIA (Nominal)

After 2020 CERA
2025 or later Shell
No visible Peak Lynch

In other words... yes there is uncertainty however most independent experts agree that it is much sooner than the IEA are telling us.
 
We all may know about inflation however we are all very new to hyperinflation which is what is likely to happen as the Fed and US Tresury attempt to solve this credit crunch (triggered by peak oil and bad financial practices) by printing more money out of thin air.

:notm


Are you kidding? Do you honestly think that as prices of consumables go higher that those businesses will pay their employees more?

No, of course not. They'll get Santa's elves to work for them, instead.

Or, in other words,

:notm


It is a recesion now, but because it is the start of energy decent brought about by the relentless decline of global oil production it will eventually be labelled a depression, then the 2nd Great Depression, then they will have to come up with a new name every year as the world adjusts to life with less and less available or affordable liquid fuels and plastics.

:notm

That someone will be pretty lonely investing in an airline when oil is $200 a barrel.

Even at $200 a barrel, people will still need to fly, no matter what the price becomes, and someone will be willing to fly them. The trick is to identify who the survivor will be, because they will clean up.

Or in other words, :notm


Investing in nothing and holding cash is not very smart I agree however there are things that can be invested in which will bring a return or at the very least preserve your wealth during this downturn and it isnt toy stores or airlines. You can invest in physical precious metals

Investing in precious metals is investing in nothing. They create no wealth and return nothing to the holder.

So, again, :notm

I'm not sure there was a single correct sentence among that entire collection of drivel.
 
Good post - seems we share similar views on "wealth" - a sustainable farm is magnificent wealth as is a university.
MITs complete release of it's complete curriculum materials on line for no monetary return was perhaps the most wealth producing effort ever.

••

How is it that the oil doomsters don't realize that whale oil ran out, electricity and oil are only 100 years old and that Germany ran a world war with no oil.

Humans are nothing if not innovative.

30 million already get around on EV and if push comes to shove coal and oil shale and clathrates have life span in the millenia - were carbon not a problem.

What I see and what the VCs see is all the comforts and convenience and more that we enjoy now but in a carbon neutral form.

My electricity already is - I pay a bit more for it $2 a day.

I love oil prices being high as it is a spur for carbon neutral fossil free solutions and also a spur for efficiency from industry to householders.

Smart govs like Sweden and Norway put high carbon taxes in place way back in the early 90s to pay for diversified approaches and encourage efficiency. The results show for both nations.

Energy security imperatives are just one more positive aspect pushing towards carbon neutral.

The reason I think we will see $200 oil equivalency soon is that I think the US dollar has to devalue
http://envast.blogspot.com/2008/10/heed-advice-of-smartest-man.html

and oil may go off the dollar ( it partially is ) o a basket of currencies.

So even a $140 a barrel coupled with a 35% drop in U$ is near enough.

it's not like it is news - just more likely to happen faster. Sort of depends on Chinese and Japanese to a degree....some irony there. :garfield:

exchange.gif
 
The following graph plots the global oil production up till 2008 and also projects what a decline rate of 3% per year would look like.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/1ace11/zeiajan08.gif

The following article explains clearly the concept of energy returned on energy invested which is crucial in understanding why oil is so special when compared to other alternative forms of energy we have available.

Implications of Energy Return on Investment, Peak Oil and the Concept of “Best First”
http://netenergy.theoildrum.com/node/4678
 
The following information has been taken from:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

PEAKING OF WORLD OIL PRODUCTION:
IMPACTS, MITIGATION, & RISK MANAGEMENT

The Hirsch report, the commonly referred to name for the report Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation, and Risk Management, was created by request for the US Department of Energy and published in February 2005. It examined the likelihood of the occurrence of peak oil, the necessary mitigating actions, and the likely impacts based on the timeliness of those actions.

XI. SUMMARY AND CONCLUDING REMARKS

Our analysis leads to the following conclusions and final thoughts.

1. World Oil Peaking is Going to Happen
World production of conventional oil will reach a maximum and decline
thereafter. That maximum is called the peak. A number of competent
forecasters project peaking within a decade
; others contend it will occur
later. Prediction of the peaking is extremely difficult because of geological
complexities, measurement problems, pricing variations, demand elasticity,
and political influences. Peaking will happen, but the timing is uncertain.

2. Oil Peaking Could Cost the U.S. Economy Dearly
Over the past century the development of the U.S. economy and lifestyle
has been fundamentally shaped by the availability of abundant, low-cost oil.
Oil scarcity and several-fold oil price increases due to world oil production
peaking could have dramatic impacts.
The decade after the onset of world
oil peaking may resemble the period after the 1973-74 oil embargo, and the
economic loss to the United States could be measured on a trillion-dollar
scale. Aggressive, appropriately timed fuel efficiency and substitute fuel
production could provide substantial mitigation.

3. Oil Peaking Presents a Unique Challenge
The world has never faced a problem like this. Without massive mitigation
more than a decade before the fact, the problem will be pervasive and will
not be temporary. Previous energy transitions (wood to coal and coal to oil)
were gradual and evolutionary; oil peaking will be abrupt and revolutionary.


4. The Problem is Liquid Fuels
Under business-as-usual conditions, world oil demand will continue
to grow, increasing approximately two percent per year for the next few
decades. This growth will be driven primarily by the transportation sector.
The economic and physical lifetimes of existing transportation equipment
are measured on decade time-scales. Since turnover rates are low, rapid
changeover in transportation end-use equipment is inherently impossible.
Oil peaking represents a liquid fuels problem, not an “energy crisis” in the
sense that term has been used. Motor vehicles, aircraft, trains, and ships
simply have no ready alternative to liquid fuels. Non-hydrocarbon-based
energy sources, such as solar, wind, photovoltaics, nuclear power,
geothermal, fusion, etc. produce electricity, not liquid fuels, so their
widespread use in transportation is at best decades away. Accordingly,
mitigation of declining world oil production must be narrowly focused.

5. Mitigation Efforts Will Require Substantial Time
Mitigation will require an intense effort over decades. This inescapable
conclusion is based on the time required to replace vast numbers of liquid
fuel consuming vehicles and the time required to build a substantial number
of substitute fuel production facilities. Our scenarios analysis shows:
• Waiting until world oil production peaks before taking crash program
action would leave the world with a significant liquid fuel deficit for more
than two decades.
• Initiating a mitigation crash program 10 years before world oil peaking
helps considerably but still leaves a liquid fuels shortfall roughly a decade
after the time that oil would have peaked.
• Initiating a mitigation crash program 20 years before peaking appears to
offer the possibility of avoiding a world liquid fuels shortfall for the forecast
period.

The obvious conclusion from this analysis is that with adequate, timely
mitigation, the economic costs to the world can be minimized. If mitigation
were to be too little, too late, world supply/demand balance will be achieved
through massive demand destruction (shortages), which would translate to
significant economic hardship.

There will be no quick fixes. Even crash programs will require more than a
decade to yield substantial relief.
 
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Who's stopping them, and how do you know this?

I think they may be stopping themselves. I dont know this for sure, I am merely attempting to speculate on why they are not forthcoming with vital information on the peaking of global oil production.
 
Since turnover rates are low, rapid
changeover in transportation end-use equipment is inherently impossible.

Serious flaw in the argument - turnover of equipment happens rather rapidly when it self finances due to fuel savings providing capital support is available.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StrategyLab/Rnd17/P2/TheAmateurJournal20080722.aspx

When gas prices spike the "fleet" got parked for alternatives from car pooling to scooters ( sold out everywhere ) to more transit use to less trips.

The money flow is already in place - the Saudis inadvertently will finance this shift.
Here is the core right here

Take a look at the facts: Damage to the most energy-sensitive sectors has been done already, and Americans are already paying a hidden oil tax.

But instead sending of our money to Washington, we are now sending it to the other governments around the world, and it's not a small bill. In 2007, the U.S. petroleum import bill came to an astounding $331 billion. In the first five months of 2008, the total was $191 billion.

The higher prices go in the shorter time period the faster the transition will come. VCs know. They all want a slice of that monetary flow.
 
Serious flaw in the argument - turnover of equipment happens rather rapidly when it self finances due to fuel savings providing capital support is available.

When gas prices spike the "fleet" got parked for alternatives from car pooling to scooters ( sold out everywhere ) to more transit use to less trips.
Yeah, and the economy suffers tremendously in the meantime. The big three and all associated parts suppliers are going down because of this "rapid turnover of equipment". And because peak oil means that every year from the peak there will be less oil available (and higher prices for that oil) there will need to be additional "rapid turnover of equipment" and how will people will be buying these new scooters when they can't afford repayments on their mortgage when they have lost their jobs?

The higher prices go in the shorter time period the faster the transition will come.

It is this transition period that us peak oil doomers are trying to warn you all about! Its not going to be all smooth sailing. It is not the end of the world but it will be the end of the world as we all know it. Preparing for this inevitable transition from oil to an alternative (lesser) energy is something we should all be doing.
 
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The following article is about the IEA recent report on global oil production.

26-Government Study Confirms:
World’s Oil Fields Drying Up at Frightening Speed

http://www.rapidtrends.com/blog/26-...’s-oil-fields-drying-up-at-frightening-speed/

"The IEA report says the world needs to increase current production by 45 million barrels per day — just to keep pace with current levels of demand.

How much oil is that? The IEA’s chief economist, Fatih Birol, says that means “bringing four new Saudi Arabias on stream” between now and 2030.

Again, that’s just to keep up with present demand. Add in growing demand from China, India, and the Middle East, and that 45 million barrels per day grows to 65 million — or FIVE new Saudi Arabias."
 
The following article is about the IEA recent report on global oil production.

26-Government Study Confirms:
World’s Oil Fields Drying Up at Frightening Speed

http://www.rapidtrends.com/blog/26-...’s-oil-fields-drying-up-at-frightening-speed/

"The IEA report says the world needs to increase current production by 45 million barrels per day — just to keep pace with current levels of demand.

How much oil is that? The IEA’s chief economist, Fatih Birol, says that means “bringing four new Saudi Arabias on stream” between now and 2030.

Again, that’s just to keep up with present demand. Add in growing demand from China, India, and the Middle East, and that 45 million barrels per day grows to 65 million — or FIVE new Saudi Arabias."
This article has a sense of alarmism that I do not entirely share. The author seems to be intentionally fanning the flames and ignoring mitigating factors. Factors like elasticity of supply and demand, alternative fuels, and AGW mitigation that will blunt the effect of declines in existing oil fields on prices.
 
How is it that the oil doomsters don't realize that whale oil ran out, electricity and oil are only 100 years old and that Germany ran a world war with no oil.

Humans are nothing if not innovative.
In 1908, the population of the U.S. (now by far the world's largest consumer of petroleum) was about 89 million, nearly a third of them full-time farmers. One hundred years later, there are well over 300 million of us, and less than one percent earn a living by growing food. That demographic shift was driven by innovation, most of the innovations either directly involving ways to exploit cheap petroleum or based indirectly on that. It didn't take place overnight.

When petroleum ceases to be cheaply available, innovative and adaptable humans will adjust to these new conditions, but it will be painful for some of them. A lot depends on how much time they have to adapt (and on how stubbornly they try to resist the changes). Peak Oil does not need to represent a sudden and dramatic downturn in global oil production in order for it to have a sudden and dramatic impact on global economies. I think there is a tendency to underestimate the degree of lifestyle change this event will require. It's not so much that we'll need to find more efficient ways to get from one place to another; it's that the places are in the wrong places.

Maybe what we'll need are innovative ways to dig up asphalt and concrete so as to reclaim the prime agricultural land under all those hideous strip malls.

Good post - seems we share similar views on "wealth" - a sustainable farm is magnificent wealth as is a university.
MITs complete release of it's complete curriculum materials on line for no monetary return was perhaps the most wealth producing effort ever.
I most enthusiastically agree with this. We have collectively created a system of perceived value. We use the phrase "dirt cheap" to refer to one of our most precious resources, and we fail to see what a poor trade we have made by covering it with concrete and planting strip malls instead of vegetables. What we see are the brightly colored balloons on the wrapper of the loaf of Wonder Bread.
 
but it will be painful for some of them.

No question dislocations will be severe as we all saw in Cuba which had a rapid enforced low fossil regime imposed.

What they have learned will help poorer nations.

The produce now abundant food with 1 calories of fossil input while North America uses 12 calories of fossil for 1 calorie of food - much of which we waste.

There are enormous efficiency gains to be made all of which are self financing as long as credit for such gains is made available.

Reminds me of that ad where the "green" junior exec presents her proposal to the skeptical iconic "boss" - when it comes to him asking for cost

girl
"It will save us 35% sir"

boss
"and how much do we spend on energy now?"

girl

"41 million sir"

Boss.....somewhat bug eyed

"Where do I sign off?"

:biggrin:

Siemens has been doing that dog and pony show with condos in Canada.

They do a written guarantee that if the savings from the retrofit ( in one case $150,000 per annum ) are not as stated Siemens will make up the difference :boggled:

THAT is confidence.....
Actual first year savings was 162,000 and of course climbing from there - that's what I mean by self financing.

The group put out $750,000 for a $150,000 + return indefinitely. Terrific ROI.

At $200 a barrel almost ANY switch to a high tech mileage vehicle is self financing.

Similar with the aircraft which is why the combination of bio-fuel and the Boeing Dreamliner has orders stretching well into the future.

The Dreamliner has a carbon footprint less than a Prius and that will lower with bio-fuel use.

Despite the dislocations the retracting of certain globalization practices based on ultra cheap transport will be good for local economies.

Do we really need frozen asparagus out of China :eusa_doh:

Cherries in winter from Chile??
 
The following article is about the IEA recent report on global oil production.

26-Government Study Confirms:
World’s Oil Fields Drying Up at Frightening Speed

http://www.rapidtrends.com/blog/26-...’s-oil-fields-drying-up-at-frightening-speed/

"The IEA report says the world needs to increase current production by 45 million barrels per day — just to keep pace with current levels of demand.

No, it doesn't. From the IEA (above):

World oil production, net of processing gains, is projected to rise from 82 mb/d in 2007 to 104 mb/d in 2030.

Last time I checked, 104-82 = 22, not 45.


How much oil is that? The IEA’s chief economist, Fatih Birol, says that means “bringing four new Saudi Arabias on stream” between now and 2030.

So? All this means is that we've got to dig more wells. The oil is there (as the IEA report makes clear (from above):

The world’s endowment of oil is large enough to support the projected rise in output, but rising oilfield decline rates will push up investment needs. Proven reserves of close to 1.3 trillion barrels equal more than 40 years of output at current rates; remaining recoverable resources of conventional oil alone are almost twice as big.

And, of course, since your source has magically doubled the necessary increase, we "really" only need two new Saudi Arabias built. Just build the infrastructure. The oil is there, waiting to be tapped.
 

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