15-year-old performs C-section

[Katana]

NEW DELHI - The 15-year-old son of two doctors performed a filmed Caesarean section birth under his parents’ watch in southern India in an apparent bid to gain a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records as the youngest surgeon.

Instead, the boy’s father could be stripped of his licenses and may face criminal charges, officials said Thursday.

Dr. K. Murugesan showed a recording of his son performing a Caesarean section to an Indian Medical Association chapter in the southern state of Tamil Nadu last month, said Dr. Venkatesh Prasad, secretary of the association. The video showed Murugesan anesthetizing the patient...

...Murugesan, who could possibly be prevented from practicing and face criminal charges for allowing his son to perform the operation, expressed no regret and accused the Manaparai medical association of being “jealous” of his son’s achievements, Prasad added.

“He said this was not the first surgery performed by his son and that he had been training him for the last three years,” said Prasad.

Murugesan told the medical association that he wanted to see his son’s name in the Guinness Book of World Records.

Link

Well, I sure hope it was worth it.

I wonder if the moron got the patient's consent before pulling this stunt.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I hope the father is stripped of his license. Unbelievable!

 

[Carnivore]

Parents from hell.

"Son, now that you are twelve I will begin training you as a surgeon, which is the career I have chosen for you. No pressure or anything, but by the time you are fifteen I want you in the Guiness book of records as the world's youngest surgeon."

I think this constitutes child abuse, apart from anything else.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I hope the father is stripped of his license. Unbelievable!

While I don't disagree, if the government does decide to ban his father from practicing legitimate medicine they should also no longer continue to tolerate the tens of thousands of phoney doctors (fondly called "quacks" in the press) openly practicing ayruvedic and various forms of "medical" witchraft while the authorities stand by and do nothing.

 

[Kerberos]

While I don't disagree, if the government does decide to ban his father from practicing legitimate medicine they should also no longer continue to tolerate the tens of thousands of phoney doctors (fondly called "quacks" in the press) openly practicing ayruvedic and various forms of "medical" witchraft while the authorities stand by and do nothing.

Not that I disagree with you, but there is a difference between cutting people open with knives and feeding them harmless herbs, undiluted water, touching them with crystals or other quark techniques. As long as you don't use it instead of real medicine these things are generally harmless.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Not that I disagree with you, but there is a difference between cutting people open with knives and feeding them harmless herbs, undiluted water, touching them with crystals or other quark techniques. As long as you don't use it instead of real medicine these things are generally harmless.

I am afraid I don't agree.

India has some really serious health care problems, problems that are fatal or potentially fatal. One of those I am involved with happens to be venomous snakebite. When people bitten by cobras, kraits, hump-nosed pit viper and Russell's Viper resort to consulting with quacks instead of legitimate doctors capable ofadministering specific antivenoms the only reason they survive is because the snakebite was either a dry bite or a bite by a non-venomous snake; and while the mortality numbers are in dispute because they are so large, they hover around 50K a year, with many tens of thousands more who survive with permanent deficits, disabilities or kidney failure and who then die if they cannot get dialysis.

The quacks or phoney doctors in India are on every street corner. Yes they openly dispense, for a small price, what may or may not be a harmless remedy (ayruvedics are formulated with aconite which is supposed to be removed but I wouldn't trust that). The witch doctors cast spells and for a price will even raise a snakebite victim from death or so they claim.They are tolerated by the authorities. They are a part of the landscape. The deaths they cause with their phoney administrations far exceed the crime this legitimate physician comitted by training his son to be a surgical P.A. and closely supervising a surgical procedure which is as much an art as it is a science. I have a sneaky feeling that this case, if prosecuted, could become a long overdue platform for prosecuting all the phoney shenanigans that legally take place in this country. And that will be a good thing.

In the west we have a choice and anyone who goes to a quack also has the option of going to a regular doctor as well. In India the quacks are so pervasive and the legit doctors so few and far between many people end up consulting the quacks instead of going out of their way or spending a few extra rupees to travel to a real health center with real doctors. This is the tragedy that WHO and other agencies are battling every day in India. Anyone with a potentially fatal disease who puts their trust and faith in the ayruvedic quacks is basically doomed.

Newswise — For decades, the concept of the “Big 4” Snakes of Medical Importance has reflected the view that four species are responsible for Indian snakebite mortality. The recent recognition of a snake in India, previously considered harmless, as a species capable of causing life-threatening envenoming brings the value of the “Big 4” into question. A new study reviews the “Big 4” and is published in the latest issue of Wilderness and Environmental Medicine.

The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the annual mortality due to snakebite in India is approximately 50,000. Many factors contribute to this mortality rate in which there are also many questions related to the treatment of snakebite victims. A study in Kerala, India, established that out of 44 snakes killed and brought to two hospitals by snakebite victims from 2000 to 2004, nine were the hump-nosed pit viper. All nine were misidentified, however, by the treating physicians.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/527997/

 

[Darth Rotor]

Parents from hell.

"Son, now that you are twelve I will begin training you as a surgeon, which is the career I have chosen for you. No pressure or anything, but by the time you are fifteen I want you in the Guiness book of records as the world's youngest surgeon."

I think this constitutes child abuse, apart from anything else.

Nope.

Let's go back a few centuries. Fathers passed the craft down to the son: coopers, carpenters, millers, brewers.

Also, a lot of young boys grow up wanting to be like dad.

Kids shows an interest, dad cultivates it, and they do a very old school, very well respected human thing: pass the family craft down to the next generation.

Of course, I'd suggest you send the kid to med school and do it right, but that is NO WAY child abuse. It is encouraging the kid to take up a respected craft. Doctor is a respected craft, yes?

(Sure, his means were a bit off, and unethical for patients, but not abusive to the eager to learn child.)

DR

 

[Art Vandelay]

This is yet another example of the dark side of the Guinness Book of World Records, and similar lists. They encourage people to do stupid things just so they can have a tiny bit of fame.

Let's go back a few centuries. Fathers passed the craft down to the son: coopers, carpenters, millers, brewers.

Passing a craft down to your children? Not child abuse. Deliberately putting your child in the position of quite likely having a patient die on him, and having to deal with the guilt while only fifteen years old, just to feed your gigantic ego? Child abuse.

 

[SteveGrenard]

This is yet another example of the dark side of the Guinness Book of World Records, and similar lists. They encourage people to do stupid things just so they can have a tiny bit of fame.


Passing a craft down to your children? Not child abuse. Deliberately putting your child in the position of quite likely having a patient die on him, and having to deal with the guilt while only fifteen years old, just to feed your gigantic ego? Child abuse.

In a year this young man could be given a rifle and join the Indian Army:

http://www.child-soldiers.org/document_get.php?id=851

And this 15 year-old is lucky to have parents who are both doctors so he doesn’t have to become one of the nearly 12 million children(a 1991study) in India under 14 who have to have to do hard labor in the fields. That's child abuse.

http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Child_Labor/childlabor.htm#study

Its all well and good that we throw around accusations of child abuse in this situation but we should do so with an appreciation of the larger issues in this country. By Indian standards this case is hardly child abuse.

There are more children under the age of fourteen in India than the entire population of the United States. The great challenge of India, as a developing country, is to provide nutrition, education and health care to these children.

Children under fourteen constitute around 3.6% of the total labor force in India. Of these children, nine out of every ten work in their own rural family settings. Nearly 85% are engaged in traditional agricultural activities. Less than 9% work in manufacturing, services and repairs. Only about 0.8% work in factories.

Remember also you are talking about a country where human trafficking in slaves including children is still an enormous problem. Now that’s child abuse:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-06-12-voa44.cfm

This report came out last week so is pretty up to date.

 

[Katana]

Call me crazy, but I was less concerned about any effects on the child. My suspicion is that he feels pretty darned studly at this point. Rather, I was far more concerned with the risk that his performing the surgery posed to the patient in this situation, and then I felt for future patients given what appears to be this idiot father's need to use his child to play one-up-man-ship in the operating room.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Here are a number of snippets from various press accounts.......

The boy’s parents own and run a maternity hospital in the city of Manaparai.

According to an IMA secretary, the baby that Raj delivered was born with a noticeable lump on the spinal cord but the birth defect had nothing to do with the surgery having been performed by a 15-year-old.

The father of the newborn child said on Wednesday; "The child is ok. There is no cause for worry."

http://www.kwtx.com/nationalnews/headlines/8113362.html

According to local media reports, Raj carried out the cesarean operation on a 20-year-old woman under the supervision of his parents at their nursing home, Mathi Surgical and Maternity Hospital, in Manaparai town.
AP quotes Dr. Venkatesh Prasad, secretary of the IMA, who saw the video as saying, "We were shocked to see the recording," adding that Murugesan was seen anesthetizing the patient. He was also warned by the IMA that his act is illegal and unethical.

Murugesan reportedly expressed no regret and accused the state officials for being "jealous" of his son's achievements and was not the first surgery performed by his son. Murugesan also added that he had been training him for the last three years.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007715277

The case of the doctor-couple in Tamil Nadu who allowed their teenager son to perform a caesarean operation is worrying for more than one reason. While it is inarguable that parents should encourage their children’s abilities and skills, it’s equally important to acknowledge that it is the parents’ responsibility to set appropriate limits within which the wards use such skills. In the latest instance, the Class X student seems to have carried out the controversial surgery last April on a 20-year-old woman under the supervision of his father, a general surgeon, and mother, an obstetrician. The father’s insistence later that he himself carried out the operation and the boy had only “helped” him notwithstanding, the Indian Medical Association (IMA) has done the right thing to take the doctor couple to task. For it is appalling that professional surgeons should turn to promoting inexperienced wannabes — however talented — to carry out medical practices in this manner.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...c71-47f1206fc6ad&&Headline=The+malady+lingers

When the investigation is finished we will no doubt learn more. One of the accounts, not quoted, indicated authorities were seeking the mother to see if she wanted to launch charges against the doctor.

 

[Darth Rotor]

This is yet another example of the dark side of the Guinness Book of World Records, and similar lists. They encourage people to do stupid things just so they can have a tiny bit of fame.

Passing a craft down to your children? Not child abuse. Deliberately putting your child in the position of quite likely having a patient die on him, and having to deal with the guilt while only fifteen years old, just to feed your gigantic ego? Child abuse.

Nope. I am amazed that you play the "bubble wrap the precious babies" card here. You presume that the child was an unwilling participant. Go back to basics.

Teaching the kid what dad does.

Yes, the dad was being a fool, and careless with his patient's safety (though there were two attending physicians) but your assumption that the child was

a not interested
b not willing
c not eager to take this step
d not also keen on the record

Does not seem supported. You create a phantasm of a child forced into this. I don't buy that for a minute. As a doctor, I'll assert that the man knew when his son was ready to take that step.
From the article:

He said this was not the first surgery performed by his son and that he had been training him for the last three years,” said Prasad.

Why do you construct this strawman? So you can carelessly throw "child abuse" into a situation that was wrong for a rather different reason: simple medical ethics in re the patient.

Kid pulls it off. Think of what that does for his self confidence.

"Wow, look at what I did!" Most kids can't, nor have the opportunity, to do such a thing.

Think of this as Doogie Howser, Mumbai. There have been teenaged students at med school, though it is rare. He's easily depicted as a very young intern. Period.

Art, do you have kids? Do you coach any youth league sports? Have you ever mentored someone through learning how to do something difficult? It's a powerful thing. Try looking at this through that lens.

No, I don't think this is good medicine, but it isn't child abuse.

DR

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Wow. What a bad idea. The consequences could have been tragic. Practicing medicine without a license is a serious crime. This child's parents should be severely reprimanded.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Its all well and good that we throw around accusations of child abuse in this situation but we should do so with an appreciation of the larger issues in this country. By Indian standards this case is hardly child abuse.

I'm not impressed by moral relativistic arguments.

And this 15 year-old is lucky to have parents who are both doctors so he doesn’t have to become one of the nearly 12 million children(a 1991study) in India under 14 who have to have to do hard labor in the fields.

Child labor to support destitute parents is one thing. Child labor, in a field which, let's face it, is way more psychologically dangerous than sewing clothes, simply to stroke the parents' ego is quite another.

There are people in their tenties that have mental breakdowns from trying to get through medical school. And this guy is putting his 15 yo through that?

Remember also you are talking about a country where human trafficking in slaves including children is still an enormous problem. Now that’s child abuse:

That's completely irrelevant.

Nope. I am amazed that you play the "bubble wrap the precious babies" card here.

And I'm suprised you play the "false dichotomy" card here. There a huge separation between "bubble wrap" and "put in a position of life and death".

You presume that the child was an unwilling participant.

Don't tell me what I presume.

You create a phantasm of a child forced into this.

You're the one creating a phantasm. Maybe was eager. Maber the kid was manipulated into thinking this was what he wanted. Maybe he was pressured into it. Maybe he was forced. I don't know. But it's still wrong. If we were discussing sex, would you be making the same arguments? That he may have been a willing participant?

The vast majority of fifteen year old children are simply not capable of making this sort of decision.

As a doctor, I'll assert that the man knew when his son was ready to take that step.

You're a doctor?

I don't think that he was in a position to make an objective assessment, any more than I'd trust a guy with a fifteen-year-old girlfriend to have an objective opinion as to whether she's ready for sex.

He said this was not the first surgery performed by his son and that he had been training him for the last three years,” said Prasad.

So the fact that she's done this more than once is supposed to make it better?

Why do you construct this strawman?

Pot, kettle.

Kid pulls it off. Think of what that does for his self confidence.

Not necessarily something good.

He's easily depicted as a very young intern. Period.

No, he's not.

It's a powerful thing. Try looking at this through that lens.

That's exactly my problem. The guy put his son through this so he could feel this "powerful thing". That's just so selfish.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I'm not impressed by moral relativistic arguments.

The argument is made in the context of child abuse in India, specifically child abuse in India and you brought up the subject of child abuse.

Child labor to support destitute parents is one thing. Child labor, in a field which, let's face it, is way more psychologically dangerous than sewing clothes, simply to stroke the parents' ego is quite another.

I am glad to hear that practicing medicine is a field that is more psychologically dangerous than performing hard labor in the field or begging for your next meal on the streets or being sold into slavery. I must remind all those who decide to enter medicine to think hard about it and perhaps become farmers instead for psychological reasons.

There are people in their twenties that have mental breakdowns from trying to get through medical school. And this guy is putting his 15 yo through that?

You have no way of knowing how well adjusted or not (well)adjusted this young man is.

That's completely irrelevant.

Not in the context of India which happens to both have a flourishing industry in quackery and medically related witchcraft as well as a serious problem with real child abuse. Both areas openly tolerated by the government.

And I'm suprised you play the "false dichotomy" card here. There a huge separation between "bubble wrap" and "put in a position of life and death"

Somehow I feel that the close supervision being provided by both parents of this young man (the father a surgeon, the mother an obstetrician) minimized any risks inherent in what is usually a rather standard procedure. I am not a surgeon but have assisted in emergency bedside tracheostomies, holding retractors, passing instruments, inserting the cannula, suctioning and sponging up blood.With the right camera angles I could be made to look as if I was doing the whole thing. I would like to see this video and a professional evaluation of it.


As for the rest of the counter argument I prefer not to speculate on whether the son was forced to participate or not. He was being trained by his father and mother for three years and let's face it in India he could do a lot worse. I am sure he'd rather be an actor in Bollywood but there comes a time when all of us have to make decisions and to do so often with our parent's advice and backing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nope.

Let's go back a few centuries. Fathers passed the craft down to the son: coopers, carpenters, millers, brewers.

Also, a lot of young boys grow up wanting to be like dad.

Kids shows an interest, dad cultivates it, and they do a very old school, very well respected human thing: pass the family craft down to the next generation.

Of course, I'd suggest you send the kid to med school and do it right, but that is NO WAY child abuse. It is encouraging the kid to take up a respected craft. Doctor is a respected craft, yes?

(Sure, his means were a bit off, and unethical for patients, but not abusive to the eager to learn child.)

DR

And how do you know he was eager to learn, and not being forced by his parents?

I saw the documentary Marjoe recently and in there the parents encouraged their child to become a minister at 4 years old, and did things like partially smother him(to leave no marks) until he learned the marriage ceremony by heart.

But is father and grandfather where ministers so it was just carrying on the family business.

 

[Comrade Ogilvy]

I suppose in India this is the equivalent of Dad giving his son his first "Chemistry Set"...Rock On!..they probably went to McVegan afterwards for a non-milkshake.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Not that I disagree with you, but there is a difference between cutting people open with knives and feeding them harmless herbs, undiluted water, touching them with crystals or other quark techniques. As long as you don't use it instead of real medicine these things are generally harmless.

Here is an common every day example of why this is not so harmless in India:

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&theme=&usrsess=1&id=160392

 

[Hamradioguy]

This reminds me of that Soviet civilian airliner crash a few years ago. Apparently the pilot let his young son come into the cockpit and try his hand at the controls...with tragic results.

Youngsters are capable of doing a lot of things, but flying airliners and practicing surgery on humans should not be on the "to do" list.

 

[Art Vandelay]

This reminds me of that Soviet civilian airliner crash a few years ago. Apparently the pilot let his young son come into the cockpit and try his hand at the controls...with tragic results.

I would think that as long as it's at a high altitude, and the pilot keeps an eye on things, it would be hard to screw things up too much.