• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

10 Commandments barred from courthouses

My understanding is that nearly all translations from the original Hebrew are inaccurate. For example, the actual Hebrew commonly translated as "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not murder." While these two translations seem to be similar, in fact they are quite different. There are many circumstances where killing is allowed (such as self-defense and war).

-Bri
 
What irritates me most is that there is no point at which the religious right will accept victory and stop. If they win having the Ten Commandments in courthouses, would they stop there? No, they'd want the Lord's Prayer, too. If they got back school prayer, would they be satisfied? No, they'd want a Bible class. Give them those things, and they'd want more and more and more. They'd fill government buildings with their mythology, then demand that the officials in those buildings confess their belief in them, pointing out all the symbols around, which they put there themselves, as proof of how religious America is.

It's like my teenaged arguments with my mother. Back down on the hair, and she'll make demands about the clothes. Concede the clothes, and then it'll be all about cleaning the room and letting light in there. After that, it'll be the music, then your social life, and before you know it she'll be picking your college and major and future bride.

For the record, I held firm, and won the hair, thus saving the Realm of Monkey from the Empire of Mom.

Although in retrospect, it was godawful hair. What the hell was I thinking? Damned if I'll admit that to her, though.
 
TragicMonkey said:
What irritates me most is that there is no point at which the religious right will accept victory and stop.

That's true of any faction in government. That's why the solution is to not let them have the power to begin with.
 
LW said:
This is statement not accurate.
Okay, it's not the list put on the tablets that Moses gave to the Israelites. It's also the only list, as far as I can see, that the Bible actually refers to as "the ten commandments". There are plenty of other lists of commandments throughout the Bible, but that doesn't make them "The Ten Commandments", even if you pick out ten of them.

And the "P" account doesn't actually mention the tablets.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Okay, it's not the list put on the tablets that Moses gave to the Israelites. It's also the only list, as far as I can see, that the Bible actually refers to as "the ten commandments". There are plenty of other lists of commandments throughout the Bible, but that doesn't make them "The Ten Commandments", even if you pick out ten of them.
According to Judaism, there are 613 commandments, all equally important, and all the word of God. The words recorded in Exodus 20 are the so-called "Ten Commandments," the words God wrote on the stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sanai and then smashed. The term "the Ten Commandments" is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew "Aseret ha-D'vareem" by which they are referred to in the Bible. The word "d'vareem" comes from the Hebrew word meaning "word," "speak," or "thing" and therefore more accurate translations would be the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words, or even the Ten Things. But "the Ten Commandments" would actually have been a different phrase in Hebrew.

That said, the Ten Commandments according to Jews are:

1. Belief in God
This category is derived from the declaration in Ex. 20:2 beginning, "I am the Lord, your God..."

2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall not have other gods..." (It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true God. )

3. Prohibition of Oaths
This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain..." (This includes prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of vows or promises, and speaking God's name or swearing unnecessarily. )

4. Sabbath
This category is derived from Ex. 20:8-11, beginning, "Remember the sabbath day..." (This includes all the laws concerning the sabbath, holidays, and sacred times.)

5. Respect for Parents and Teachers
This category is derived from Ex. 20:12, beginning, "Honor your father and mother..."

6. Prohibition of Murder
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not murder." (This is a prohibition against murder, not against killing in general.)

7. Prohibition of Adultery
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not commit adultery."

8. Prohibition of Theft
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not steal." (It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also includes kidnapping.)

9. Prohibition of False Witness
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

10. Prohibition of Coveting
This category is derived from Ex. 20:14, beginning, "You shall not covet your neighbor's house..."

I'm not sure if that clarifies anything or not, but there you have it. More info here. Also here.

-Bri
 
Art Vandelay said:
So what's the difference between perjury and false witness?
I don't know.

Although a lot of times the 9th commandment is translated as "Thou shalt not lie," prohibition against lying is actually not one of the Ten Commandments (it is prohibited elsewhere). Apparently, the 9th commandment concerns lying under oath against another person in a court of law or other proceeding. It could be that the "under oath" part is the emphasis, meaning that the prohibition might actually be against lying when you've sworn under God's name to tell the truth.

-Bri
 
Bri said:
For example, the actual Hebrew commonly translated as "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not murder." While these two translations seem to be similar, in fact they are quite different.

My understanding, and this is based on precious little knowledge, is that the source of this little translation error is not in translating Hebrew to English, but rather in translating 17th century English to modern English.

I am told that in the 17th century, when the King James version of the Bible was translated, the word "kill" had a meaning much closer to our word "murder".

Not that it matters much, but I found it interesting trivia, and I hope someone else does too.
 
Bri said:
For example, the actual Hebrew commonly translated as "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not murder." While these two translations seem to be similar, in fact they are quite different.

My understanding, and this is based on precious little knowledge, is that the source of this little translation error is not in translating Hebrew to English, but rather in translating 17th century English to modern English.

I am told that in the 17th century, when the King James version of the Bible was translated, the word "kill" had a meaning much closer to our word "murder".

Not that it matters much, but I found it interesting trivia, and I hope someone else does too.
 
For example, the actual Hebrew commonly translated as "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not murder." While these two translations seem to be similar, in fact they are quite different.

And to repeat that quoting but with a different comment - what I can't help but find interesting about it is how empty the commandment is if it reads "Thou shalt not murder".

Now, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a pretty strong rule - even if specified as applying only to people. (And, also, pretty inconsistent with the bible.) But 'murder' just means 'illegal killing', so "Thou Shalt Not Murder" is really kind of .... trivial. It just means "Don't Kill In Situations Where You Are Not To Kill", and while perfectly accurate that really doesn't say much of anything at all.
 
It also means that the claim that our legal system is based on the Ten Commandments is obviously ********. If the commandment is to not kill in a manner prohibited by law, then clearly the law must precede the commandment, otherwise the commandment is meaningless. Same for theft, covetness, and adultery.
 
I was in San Francisco attending conferences when the Ten Commandments decisions were handed down. So my commentary on the matter is a little later than I would like.

First, here are links to the opinions for the Texas case (upholding the commandments monument) and the Kentucky case (forbidding display of the Commandments in Kentucky courthouses). I recommend reading the opinions themselves rather than relying upon what the news media or commentators or litigants or activists or I have to say about them. Many of those who have commented on the cases have, I think, missed some of the major points.

Overall, it is probably fair to say that there was more going on here than the opinions showed. There may have been concern among some members of the Court that there would be a push to roll back the First Amendment to allow the government to erect religious monuments. Something similar is already happening in connection with flag desecration, in which a proposed constitutional amendment would roll back First Amendment protection for some kinds of expression that some people don't like. And there is also currently a movement (supported by the president) to amend the Constitution to fend off rulings of "activist judges" without any showing of need. In other words, there is a political climate right now that favors amending the consititution based upon trivialities, and there may have been concern that a sweeping ruling against commandment displays would result in a trivial, and unwise, push to amend the Constitution.

So the Court's rulings have elements of a compromise: each side gets something. Long-standing monuments can probably stay up for a while, but new monuments are going to be harder to put up.

It seems pretty clear, however, that the scale generally tipped in favor of those who feel that commandment displays are not appropriate.

There are some important differences between the Kentucky case and the Texas case. Although both cases were decided by 5-4, the Kentucky case inlcuded an "opinion of the court" and the Texas case did not. An "opinion of the court" means that a majority agreed on both the result and the rationale. An opinion of the court is entitled to considerable legal weight.

The Texas case, by contrast, was a plurality opinion, and there was no opinion of the court. Five justices agreed on the result, but they did not agree on the rationale! A plurality decision is generally regarded as having far less legal weight.

In the Kentucky case, the Justices that agreed on the result and the rationale were Justices Stevens, O'Connor, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer. It was Justice Breyer who "switched sides" in the Texas case, but he did not agree with the rationale urged by Justices Rehnquist, Scalia, Kennedy and Thomas.

In the Kentucky case, Justice Souter wrote the opinion of the court. The opinion reaffirms that the current state of the law is that the government is to be neutral on matters of religion. (In spite of the result in the Texas case, this is still the law.) The Stone case is still viable, and display of Ten Commandments text is presumed to be intended to advance religion. (In spite of the result in the Texas case, this is still the law, too.) The opinion has many strong or thought-provoking points, but it comes to its conclusion with these powerful words:
Historical evidence thus supports no solid argument for changing course (whatever force the argument might have when directed at the existing precedent), whereas public discourse at the present time certainly raises no doubt about the value of the interpretative approach invoked for 60 years now. We are centuries away from the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre and the treatment of heretics in early Massachusetts, but the divisiveness of religion in current public life is inescapable. This is no time to deny the prudence of understanding the Establishment Clause to require the Government to stay neutral on religious belief, which is reserved for the conscience of the individual.
Justice O'Connor's concurring opinion picks up the same theme:
Reasonable minds can disagree about how to apply the Religion Clauses in a given case. But the goal of the Clauses is clear: to carry out the Founders' plan of preserving religious liberty to the fullest extent possible in a pluralistic society. By enforcing the Clauses, we have kept religion a matter for the individual conscience, not for the prosecutor or bureaucrat. At a time when we see around the world the violent consequences of the assumption of religious authority by government, Americans may count themselves fortunate: Our regard for constitutional boundaries has protected us from similar travails, while allowing private religious exercise to flourish.
Justice Scalia's dissent in the Kentucky case, by contrast, follows a disturbing theme, one that the majority in the Kentucky case (and the dissents in the Texas case) spent considerable effort rebutting.

The view of at least three members of the Court is that the First Amendment allows the government to favor religion, and that the First Amendment allows the government, to a degree, to say which religions are right. Justice Scalia includes the following in his opinion (the emphasis is mine): "As one of our Supreme Court opinions rightly observed, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." This remark, made in 1952, has been heavily criticized and the Court had largely backpedalled on it. Justice Scalia, however, would reinvigorate this rationale, and take it further. (Justice Rehnquist also recited this view in his opinion in the Texas case.) According to Justice Scalia, the government can declare that there is a deity (in other words, the government can declare that atheists and agnostics are in the wrong), and further, the government apparently can also declare that there is only a single god (i.e., that those that hold to non-monotheistic religions are also in the wrong). Also, government can also declare that the Almighty is concerned with human affairs (i.e., that various views of deism are wrong... even though many of the founders of the country were deists).
With respect to public acknowledgment of religious belief, it is entirely clear from our Nation's historical practices that the Establishment Clause permits this disregard of polytheists and believers in unconcerned deities, just as it permits the disregard of devout atheists.
And, Justice Scalia says, government can expressly honor that god without establishing a religion.

Where does government acquire its knowledge or wisdom about the existence of a deity, the nature of this deity, the precise number of one deity, and the need for that deity to be honored? Justice Scalia doesn't say.

Justice Souter, Justice O'Connor and Justice Stevens (writing in the Texas case, not in the Kentucky case) take serious issue with Justice Scalia's view. Justice Scalia seems to be most stung by Justice Stevens's opinion, calling his arguments strawman arguments. And yet, there doesn't seem to be much straw in what Justice Stevens has to say:
A reading of the First Amendment dependent on either of the purported original meanings expressed above would eviscerate the heart of the Establishment Clause. It would replace Jefferson's "wall of separation" with a perverse wall of exclusion--Christians inside, non-Christians out. It would permit States to construct walls of their own choosing--Baptists inside, Mormons out; Jewish Orthodox inside, Jewish Reform out. A Clause so understood might be faithful to the expectations of some of our Founders, but it is plainly not worthy of a society whose enviable hallmark over the course of two centuries has been the continuing expansion of religious pluralism and tolerance.

Unless one is willing to renounce over 65 years of Establishment Clause jurisprudence and cross back over the incorporation bridge..., appeals to the religiosity of the Framers ring hollow.
...
I recognize that the requirement that government must remain neutral between religion and irreligion would have seemed foreign to some of the Framers; so too would a requirement of neutrality between Jews and Christians. ... Fortunately, we are not bound by the Framers' expectations--we are bound by the legal principles they enshrined in our Constitution. Story's vision that States should not discriminate between Christian sects has as its foundation the principle that government must remain neutral between valid systems of belief. As religious pluralism has expanded, so has our acceptance of what constitutes valid belief systems. The evil of discriminating today against atheists, "polytheists[,] and believers in unconcerned deities," ... is in my view a direct descendent of the evil of discriminating among Christian sects.
Justices Rehnquist and Thomas submitted detailed opinions in the Texas case, but their views are not all that different from what they've said before. Justice Thomas once again puts forth the bizarre notion that there cannot be establishment without coercion. Justice Stevens blasts this notion apart in a footnote.

The key opinion to read is that of Justice Breyer. His rationale for allowing the Texas monument is, in my judgment, weak. Basically, he focuses upon what he perceives as a secular purpose, apparently based on the obsevation that some of the commandments are secular. He also finds it significant that no one objected until now. These rationales are weak because the secular purpose aspect was undercut by the Kentucky case, and because it does not make sense to suggest that a long-standing wrong cannot be righted because it is long-standing. He adds the following strange observation:
As far as I can tell, 40 years passed in which the presence of this monument, legally speaking, went unchallenged (until the single legal objection raised by petitioner). And I am not aware of any evidence suggesting that this was due to a climate of intimidation.
What is Justice Breyer really saying? I think this is the core of it:
Such a holding might well encourage disputes concerning the removal of longstanding depictions of the Ten Commandments from public buildings across the Nation. And it could thereby create the very kind of religiously based divisiveness that the Establishment Clause seeks to avoid.
 
Brown said:
According to Justice Scalia, the government can declare that there is a deity (in other words, the government can declare that atheists and agnostics are in the wrong),
It seems to me that there is difference between saying that someone is wrong and saying that they are in the wrong.

Where does government acquire its knowledge or wisdom about the existence of a deity, the nature of this deity, the precise number of one deity, and the need for that deity to be honored? Justice Scalia doesn't say.
If I might attempt to speak for him, government is the embodiment of the people. The government is thus authorized to express the opinions of the people in official pronouncements. As long as 51% of the people believe that God exists, government is justified in adopting that point of view. The issue of how the people came to their views is not important.

He adds the following strange observation:
Apparently, Justice Breyer holds that the concept of hostile possession applies to the constitution. If someone squats on my civil rights long enough without me filling out the proper forms, I'm just SOL. The fact that it started before I was even born is entirely irrelevant. It seems to me that this argument provides obvious ammunition to further challenges of SOCAS violations: in considering the constitutional impact of an act, we must consider not merely the immediate impact, but all conceivable effects for all time, for if an act is upheld now, the option to revisit later it in light of future effects will not be easily exercised.

Such a holding might well encourage disputes concerning the removal of longstanding depictions of the Ten Commandments from public buildings across the Nation. And it could thereby create the very kind of religiously based divisiveness that the Establishment Clause seeks to avoid.
On the contrary, a "speak now or forever hold your peace" ruling that Breyer advocates would encourage seculatists to challenge everything they can, for fear that a failure to do so would be interpreted as "waiving" the violation. The idea that the solution to religious diviseness is to simply ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist is simply absurd.

I can't help but feel that when he says that it could create "religiously based diviseness", he is using the phrase "religiously based diviseness" as a codephrase for "the religious right not getting their way". After all, all of this controversy is ultimately a result of them trying to push everyone else around. Secularists don't go around trying to stir up trouble. They don't try to have the government pass resolutions denying the existence of God. As long as there are any restrictions on the Religious Right, the "religiously based diviseness" will continue. The only way it will ever stop is if there is a complete capitulation. The historical absence of challenges to establishments is not, as Breyer suggests, due to an absence of concern, but rather an absence of power on the part of atheists (I cannot fathom how anyone can state with a straight face that this country does not have a history of intimidating atheists; our money essentially declares that atheists are not true Americans, just for starters). The elimination of these suits will therefore require a return to powerlessness for atheists, a solution I find quite disturbing.
 
The elimination of these suits will therefore require a return to powerlessness for atheists, a solution I find quite disturbing.
Remember that this sort of thing doesn't just affect atheists either. Many continue to cite that the display of the Ten Commandments promotes "Judeo-Christian" values, but a lot of Jews take offense to the version of the Ten Commandments that is commonly displayed (which is why I brought up the "Thou shalt not kill" vs "Thou shalt not murder" example above). Many Jews don't consider the Ten Commandments displays in question to be their Ten Commandments. Not to mention the hundreds of other religions that don't have displays at all.

Having obviously religious symbols on public property is always going to be exclusionary. I do understand the concept of a display of "art" which has a theme of "justice" and happens to contain the Ten Commandments or other religious symbols, but even that is exclusionary. It also assumes that the Ten Commandments are a historical document, which many don't consider them to be.

-Bri
 
Isnt putting the 10 commandments outside a courthouse pretty much like putting the kama sutra in a convent??

To say our laws are based on the 10 commandments is a crock. Those very same courthouses give us the legal authority to break pretty much all the commandments
 
Eleatic Stranger said:
And to repeat that quoting but with a different comment - what I can't help but find interesting about it is how empty the commandment is if it reads "Thou shalt not murder".

Now, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a pretty strong rule - even if specified as applying only to people. (And, also, pretty inconsistent with the bible.) But 'murder' just means 'illegal killing', so "Thou Shalt Not Murder" is really kind of .... trivial. It just means "Don't Kill In Situations Where You Are Not To Kill", and while perfectly accurate that really doesn't say much of anything at all.

I call it the "Barney Fife" version. It's kind of like making a commandment that says, "Obey all commandments."

I guess I expect more from a omnipotent, omniscient god. Maybe a commandment that is _meaningful_.
 

Back
Top Bottom