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10^23

In Atlanta, we had homeopathic screwdrivers (the drink, not the tool); it's a miracle any of us were able to drive home without incident.
 
arthwollipot said:
Meanwhile, I provide a verbal description of what went on in the latest episode of Rational Capital.

And for the record, this episode also contains a watershed moment that should be significant to all skeptics.
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I just listened to the first couple of minutes of your podcast, and have to note that, once again, the skeptics have gotten it wrong. According to Homeopathic tradition, and the "laws of similars and serial dilutions", a homeopathic preparation of Hydrochloric Acid should be a safe and effective antacid. Also, the "overdose" of homeopathic sleeping pills is not an effective demonstration either, for the same reason. The more homeopathic remedy you take at one time, the less effective it is (according to the magical thinking in which the homeopaths engage). If you want a dangerous homeopathic sleeping pill, you should take the 30C preperation bought at the drugstore, and dilute and sucuss it several more times, to boost the strength.

We skeptics just seem to keep missing the point with homeopathy over and over again. Probably because we are incapable of the really magical thinking necessary to "drink" it all in.
 
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Gr8wight said:
I just listened to the first couple of minutes of your podcast, and have to note that, once again, the skeptics have gotten it wrong. According to Homeopathic tradition, and the "laws of similars and serial dilutions", a homeopathic preparation of Hydrochloric Acid should be a safe and effective antacid. Also, the "overdose" of homeopathic sleeping pills is not an effective demonstration either, for the same reason. The more homeopathic remedy you take at one time, the less effective it is (according to the magical thinking in which the homeopaths engage). If you want a dangerous homeopathic sleeping pill, you should take the 30C preperation bought at the drugstore, and dilute and sucuss it several more times, to boost the strength.

We skeptics just seem to keep missing the point with homeopathy over and over again. Probably because we are incapable of the really magical thinking necessary to "drink" it all in.
Click to expand...

I realize that the "overdose" won't convince supporters of homeopathy and gives them an out, but I think it can be an effective demonstration for people who think that homeopathy is sort of like herbal medicine--safe, natural, wholesome, healthy (not that herbal remedies are necessarily all those things, but that's the perception). The "overdose" illustrates to those people that homeopathy is nothing, just water with no active ingredients.

In Atlanta, we didn't do the overdose, partly because we didn't get started early enough to prepare for it, but also because, in the US, homeopathy isn't regulated, so you don't really know exactly what is in "homeopathic" remedies. Some "inactive" ingredients may actually be harmful.
 
Yes, however, those who are on the fence, and are seeking information from both sides, will hear from the homeopaths that we plainly do not know what we are talking about.
 
Gr8wight said:
I just listened to the first couple of minutes of your podcast, and have to note that, once again, the skeptics have gotten it wrong. According to Homeopathic tradition, and the "laws of similars and serial dilutions", a homeopathic preparation of Hydrochloric Acid should be a safe and effective antacid. Also, the "overdose" of homeopathic sleeping pills is not an effective demonstration either, for the same reason. The more homeopathic remedy you take at one time, the less effective it is (according to the magical thinking in which the homeopaths engage). If you want a dangerous homeopathic sleeping pill, you should take the 30C preperation bought at the drugstore, and dilute and sucuss it several more times, to boost the strength.
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I agree - which is why I didn't do the homeopathic overdose stunt. Our objections to the overdose are outlined quite well in a "talking to my cat" segment here (that's a text transcript of the segment). My point was more about the process of creating a homeopathic dilution, rather than that dilution's effect. In my press release (which I'm pretty sure I posted here) I said:
We will not be making a claim about whether or not homeopathy actually works. Instead, we will be demonstrating to the public how homeopathy is prepared.
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The drinking the bottle of water afterward was merely because I was thirsty. Methinks you may have missed the point of this particular demonstration.
 
Actually, I don't think it matters either way. Shouldn't diluting something very acidic turn it into something very alkaline? Should still be dangerous.
 
No, diluting an acid with water can't make it alkaline. Best it can do is bring it closer and closer to neutral, ie. pH 7.
 
I do agree with you that the demonstration to the public of exactly what the creation of a homeopathic remedy entails is probably of value.

I have a question. Does anyone believe that a company like Boiron, a corporate manufacturer of "homeopathic remedies," is actually doing all those dilutions? Or are they just printing different labels and slapping them on the same bottle of little sugar pills? There's an investigative report I'd like to see: a look inside the Boiron manufacturing facility.
 
arthwollipot said:
No, diluting an acid with water can't make it alkaline. Best it can do is bring it closer and closer to neutral, ie. pH 7.
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You're talking about reality, I was talking about homeopathy. If diluting something which causes certain symptoms turns that substance into something which neutralises those symptoms, then it makes sense that diluting an acid turns it into a substance that neutralises an acid - in other words, an alkaline.
 
Gr8wight said:
I do agree with you that the demonstration to the public of exactly what the creation of a homeopathic remedy entails is probably of value.

I have a question. Does anyone believe that a company like Boiron, a corporate manufacturer of "homeopathic remedies," is actually doing all those dilutions? Or are they just printing different labels and slapping them on the same bottle of little sugar pills? There's an investigative report I'd like to see: a look inside the Boiron manufacturing facility.
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I'm told there's a succussing machine, but I'd love to get a tour of one of these manufacturing facilities.

Sceptic Tank said:
You're talking about reality, I was talking about homeopathy. If diluting something which causes certain symptoms turns that substance into something which neutralises those symptoms, then it makes sense that diluting an acid turns it into a substance that neutralises an acid - in other words, an alkaline.
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Ah. I see where we went wrong there. :D
 
Sceptic Tank said:
You're talking about reality, I was talking about homeopathy. If diluting something which causes certain symptoms turns that substance into something which neutralises those symptoms...
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Nope - that isn't the principle behind homoeopathy. The "law of similars", as they call it, says that a medicine that causes certain symptoms in healthy volunteers will curer patients suffering from similar symptoms. It is the diluted remedy itself that is supposed to cause the symptoms, not whatever it is made from in undiluted form. "Provings", in which the homoeopaths decide what symptoms the remedies are supposed to cause, are carried out using the diluted remedies.

The stuff about the dilutions reversing the effect is a misconception, albeit one that homoeopaths often seem to encourage, perhaps because the reality is even more ridiculous.
 
Gr8wight said:
I have a question. Does anyone believe that a company like Boiron, a corporate manufacturer of "homeopathic remedies," is actually doing all those dilutions? Or are they just printing different labels and slapping them on the same bottle of little sugar pills? There's an investigative report I'd like to see: a look inside the Boiron manufacturing facility.
Click to expand...


They do, although for high potencies they generally use machines that work by the "Korsakov method" - rather than measuring out 1/100 of the solution each time, the machine repeatedly empties and refills the same vessel, and it is assumed that 1/100 sticks to the sides each time.
 
Mojo said:
"Provings", in which the homoeopaths decide what symptoms the remedies are supposed to cause, are carried out using the diluted remedies.
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They are now, yes. But when Hahnemann first started, he used undiluted or only slightly diluted substances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Provings

At first Hahnemann used material doses for provings, but he later advocated proving with “remedies” at a 30C dilution...
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After ingestion, all those homeopathic remedies will eventually be excreted. They will make their way into the oceans and the extreme dilution combined with constant agitation by the waves should increase the potency enormously. We are all being treated with them, without our consent. Something should be done about it.
 
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Mojo said:
Nope - that isn't the principle behind homoeopathy. The "law of similars", as they call it, says that a medicine that causes certain symptoms in healthy volunteers will curer patients suffering from similar symptoms. It is the diluted remedy itself that is supposed to cause the symptoms, not whatever it is made from in undiluted form. "Provings", in which the homoeopaths decide what symptoms the remedies are supposed to cause, are carried out using the diluted remedies.

The stuff about the dilutions reversing the effect is a misconception, albeit one that homoeopaths often seem to encourage, perhaps because the reality is even more ridiculous.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is that it will actually make the acid more acidic? By the time it had been diluted 30 times it should have been pH, say, -1,000,000?
 
arthwollipot said:
They are now, yes. But when Hahnemann first started, he used undiluted or only slightly diluted substances.
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When he first started he also used undiluted or only slightly diluted substances to treat his patients. He only introduced the dilutions when he realised that this tended to poison them - this was in the early 1820s, I think. He believed that this would remove the toxicity while retaining the essential symptom-provoking ability of the remedy. Later he even decided that it would intensify (not reverse) the symptom-producing powers. He began using the diluted remedies in "provings" around the same time.

And the use of undiluted substances in provings does not alter the essential principle of homoeopathy - that a patient will be cured by a remedy that produces similar symptoms to those he is experiencing. If the remedies opposed the symptoms, then Hahnemann would have termed that "allopathy".
 
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