• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Tim Minchin: "Science inspires, so don't let your art rule your head"

I reckon (and as a not-Nobel-laureate I may, Tim assures me, hypothesise with relative impunity) that artists have always embraced science - it's science that gives us new pigments, new techniques and new media, science improves our tools, it widens our audience and plays its part in enabling professional specialisation in societies.

What Tim actually appears to be saying is not that anybody should embrace anything, but that artists should do a lot less embracing of woo (and tattoos and hair dye, apparantly, which seems uncalled for - I manage quite well without either, and both are now so mainstream that I'd be surprised if a significant number of scientists didn't have one and/or use the other).

What he could have more productively said, given that his audience was (largely) scientists and not (principally) artists, is that scientists could profit from embracing art. Perhaps not directly in their field, although I'd hope that imagination and creativity would benefit any sort of exploration and discovery, but certainly in the way science is communicated to the wider world. Given that this was the foreword to a collection of science writing, he might have started with his final paragraphs and run with that point - that art is as essential to science as science is to art. Instead he spends a lot of time apparantly deriding artists - even when he admits to building a massive strawman, it turns out he's not admitting to a massively misleading portrayal of the artists view of scientists, he's just burning it down to make way for a new one, in which no scientists are "cold, boring and amoral". But some scientists are, just as some artists are air-headed woos with pink hair and tattoos.

Yes, there is (as he says) a popular perception that the two fields are irreconcilably opposed. Academia keeps them well apart (though I got a BSc partly by burning giant origami swans for an elective module from the art faculty - it did not go down well with the science faculty). Though there are undeniably talented artists here, there's also ample evidence of not only ignorance of art, but also of uncaring ignorance - even with google to hand, Duchamp's work is credited to Warhol (for example)...an equivalent of claiming Einstein discovered gravity.

Again, if both sides need to stop being sides, and you have the opportunity to speak to one 'side', the message would be more convincing if it didn't focus so much on blaming the other side.
 
I reckon (and as a not-Nobel-laureate I may, Tim assures me, hypothesise with relative impunity) that artists have always embraced science - it's science that gives us new pigments, new techniques and new media, science improves our tools, it widens our audience and plays its part in enabling professional specialisation in societies.

...

Again, if both sides need to stop being sides, and you have the opportunity to speak to one 'side', the message would be more convincing if it didn't focus so much on blaming the other side.

Or as David Hume said back in the 18th century:

The anatomist presents to the eye the most hideous and disagreeable objects; but his science is useful to the painter in delineating even a Venus or an Helen. While the latter employs all the richest colours of his art, and gives his figures the most graceful and engaging airs; he must still carry his attention to the inward structure of the human body, the position of the muscles, the fabric of the bones, and the use and figure of every part or organ. Accuracy is, in every case, advantageous to beauty, and just reasoning to delicate sentiment. In vain would we exalt the one by depreciating the other.
 
given that his audience was (largely) scientists and not (principally) artists,


The crux of your argument seems to rely on that statement, and I'm not sure it's true. I believe (though I wouldn't swear) that the Best [Nationality] Science Writing [Year] collection is generally intended for, and read by, a somewhat educated lay audience. And if its goal is to help popularize scientific literacy among the masses, I think that essay is a perfectly good inclusion. I didn't see it as "blaming the other side," but merely pointing out how useful and inspiring science is to everyone -- even those who hold mistaken views about it.
 
I reckon (and as a not-Nobel-laureate I may, Tim assures me, hypothesise with relative impunity) that artists have always embraced science - it's science that gives us new pigments, new techniques and new media, science improves our tools, it widens our audience and plays its part in enabling professional specialisation in societies.

What Tim actually appears to be saying is not that anybody should embrace anything, but that artists should do a lot less embracing of woo (and tattoos and hair dye, apparantly, which seems uncalled for - I manage quite well without either, and both are now so mainstream that I'd be surprised if a significant number of scientists didn't have one and/or use the other).

What he could have more productively said, given that his audience was (largely) scientists and not (principally) artists, is that scientists could profit from embracing art. Perhaps not directly in their field, although I'd hope that imagination and creativity would benefit any sort of exploration and discovery, but certainly in the way science is communicated to the wider world. Given that this was the foreword to a collection of science writing, he might have started with his final paragraphs and run with that point - that art is as essential to science as science is to art. Instead he spends a lot of time apparantly deriding artists - even when he admits to building a massive strawman, it turns out he's not admitting to a massively misleading portrayal of the artists view of scientists, he's just burning it down to make way for a new one, in which no scientists are "cold, boring and amoral". But some scientists are, just as some artists are air-headed woos with pink hair and tattoos.

Yes, there is (as he says) a popular perception that the two fields are irreconcilably opposed. Academia keeps them well apart (though I got a BSc partly by burning giant origami swans for an elective module from the art faculty - it did not go down well with the science faculty). Though there are undeniably talented artists here, there's also ample evidence of not only ignorance of art, but also of uncaring ignorance - even with google to hand, Duchamp's work is credited to Warhol (for example)...an equivalent of claiming Einstein discovered gravity.

Again, if both sides need to stop being sides, and you have the opportunity to speak to one 'side', the message would be more convincing if it didn't focus so much on blaming the other side.

You must have read a different article to me as I didn't see any derision of artists in it. Methinks you protest too much.

He was pointing out an often observed (perceived) correlation between what may colloquially be called 'arty types' and spirituality and woo and similar perceptions that science is boring and then arguing that these are wrong or at least don't need to be that way.

You'd have to work pretty hard to see it as being negative to artists but then you seem to have managed it.

Then again, that's you arty types all over, sooooo emotional.:p;)
 
The crux of your argument seems to rely on that statement, and I'm not sure it's true. I believe (though I wouldn't swear) that the Best [Nationality] Science Writing [Year] collection is generally intended for, and read by, a somewhat educated lay audience. And if its goal is to help popularize scientific literacy among the masses, I think that essay is a perfectly good inclusion. I didn't see it as "blaming the other side," but merely pointing out how useful and inspiring science is to everyone -- even those who hold mistaken views about it.

I'm not sure the argument has a crux, but if you wanted to oppose it then that would be a good crux to pick to the exclusion of the rest of the argument...

On the plus, erm, side, we now have three sides - scientists, artists and 'the masses'. How is it he strawmanned that scientists were perceived? 'Cold, emotionless and boring'? He forgot 'arrogant'. I don't know who 'the masses' are, but if they're scientifically illiterate I don't see them rushing out to buy a Best Science Writing collection.

Perhaps (or even probably) we're using slightly different definitions of the words 'scientist' and 'artist' - but Tim started it. Most of those straw-artists with mermaid tattoos and pink hair he mentioned aren't artists, they're just arty, and the readers of a Best Science Writing collection may not all be professional scientists, anymore than many posters here, who are...well, 'sciencey'. 'Scientish'? Do let me know if I've overlooked a better and more obvious adjective.
 
You must have read a different article to me as I didn't see any derision of artists in it. Methinks you protest too much.

And out come the acolytes...

I think you must have read a different post than I wrote, as I don't recall mentioning 'derision'. Methinks merely misquoting the Bard doth not an argument make.

You also seem to have read the same article, but read from a different approach. I, for example, didn't read it as the Words of the Prophet Minchin. I imagine that's what it would take to swallow "some artists' anti-scientific world view" (with that 'some' being one of the weasliest words in the article), an unsupported assertion that is demonstrably untrue (just ask Hume...well, consult his record, he's long dead now).

He was pointing out an often observed (perceived) correlation between what may colloquially be called 'arty types' and spirituality and woo and similar perceptions that science is boring and then arguing that these are wrong or at least don't need to be that way.

I think you meant 'perceived' - there's a big difference between that and 'observed', as well you know - although you did at least use correlation correctly, without cheekily trying to insert 'causation' in square brackets after it. I wonder why, despite the sermon, you insist on maintaining a division between 'arty' types (who you think are all woos) and 'sciencey types', who are 'better' (or at least more 'sciencey'). You seem to have missed his admission that it was a huge strawman, in your eagerness to have him support your straw views.

You'd have to work pretty hard to see it as being negative to artists but then you seem to have managed it.

Yep, you definitely read a completely different post. At this rate, I'm not even sure you read your own post. On one hand you share his 'observation' [perception] [[prejudice]] of a correlation between art and woo (which, let's face it, is merely deriding art for not being science) and on the other you claim there is no negativity toward artists.

Like so many fundamentalists* you distort the message to suit your unreasoned view.

*and I bet you read that wrong too ;)

Then again, that's you arty types all over, sooooo emotional.:p;)

I just checked, he said scientists were sometimes seen as 'cold, boring and amoral', not 'emotionless'. But we can add emotionless, eh? Don't let anybody convince you there's something wrong with expressing emotion - suppressing them is not a requirement of science nor is it any longer a requirement of being a man.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom