Tarot cards, they are AMAZING!

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Excellent. You're our first volunteer.

Any more? I think we need about three people. I'm thinking we should ask a standard question for each person, something like 'what's my love life going to be like' or something like that.



Depends on how hard the reader works to make it specific. I'm going to make the readings we do in the experiment as specific as possible but do remember I'm not (nor have I claimed to be) anything more than a dabbler. I'm not going to be using any sort of 'special powers' on my part. I'm going to be sticking to the definitions of the cards that come up and the positions they land in.

Who else is up for the test as agreed?

Interesting - as the cards have multiple meanings (often contradictory - and don't even need to be 'reversed' for that) along with the wonderful additional instruction of 'Unless you feel a different interpretation fits better'. Good luck with that.

 

[Andy_Ross]

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/star-trek/

lol Star Trek Tarot.

 

[arthwollipot]

A lot of the tales about the cards are unnecessary ritual - buying them, wrapping them in silk, storing them in an ornate carved box, and so on. These may impress others, but the “talent” is in the person doing the reading.

Agreed. I was always told that you should never buy your own Tarot. Apparently it spoils the mojo or something.

You oversimplify. Each card has multiple meanings, and can mean something very different depending on how it is used, where it appears, and what symbols stand out as meaningful. One reader will see a very different “story” to another. My late wife tried to learn the Tarot, and would ask me my interpretation of the cards. Mine was often radically to hers, and sometimes the opposite meaning.

You overcomplicate. The pictures on the cards are just pictures. Any "meaning" they have is entirely in the querent's head. Sure, the pictures illustrate certain... shall we say, "archetypes", but it's up to the querent to relate those images to their situation.

If there is an outside influence, then the cards are not random. This is a mistaken assumption based on your presumption that there is no supernatural. They are helpful in the way you suggest.

But you ignore the fact that the cards could also present new information that was not available to the querent, and is often contrary to their thinking or consideration.

And exactly what in that fact necessitates the supernatural? It's a creative process going on in the mind of the querent, just like any other creative process. When we draw a picture, or write a novel, are we creating "new information"? Does that depend on a supernatural element? The tarot can inspire new ideas in a person's mind, just like a glass of wine can inspire a new stanza in a poet's mind. Sometimes the creative process takes you in unexpected and surprising directions.

Nice thinking. But you ignore the fact that you have combined two distinct processes. What the coin toss result was, and whether a person decides to accept or reject the result.

I haven't ignored it. In fact, that's precisely what I was describing. Thank you for making my point for me.

Some Tarot readings are similar to a coin toss. Others also have a yes or no but with more information as to why. Some reading say that some things may happen, and they include the influence of the cards.

Other readings are much more complex and give information and warnings.

None of which contradicts my argument that all interpretation of the cards goes on in the querent's mind.

Many Tarot readers have no psychic talent.

You misspelled "all".

 

[arthwollipot]

Great. Some more info. I do not let the querent handle the cards. They bend them, and in my opinion degrade them. Since the reader is the one who is supposed t have the "gift", it make sense that it is the reader's shuffle that removes the randomness from the cards. And now that I think about it, any Tarot reader I have gone to does the same.

So you don't let the querent shuffle the cards, even though it is through the reader's shuffle that the cards get their "non-randomness"? How does that work?

I do not memorize the cards and their meanings. Too much information, especially since I do this very infrequently. I look at the layout and each card. I do know what each position represents. I get a general feel based on what symbol on the card seems to stand out. Only then do I reference the book to look up the meaning of each card, and decide what meaning is relevant. The cards must tell a "story" that is fairly specific.

My advice: throw away the book. Let the pictures on the cards tell the story. The book constrains you into forcing a particular interpretation into the querent's head.

The reading I did for a woman was all about problems in their relationship, and the bitterness and hatred between them. Since I had met the couple in group beach walks, and there was no evidence of problems, I told the woman that there must be an influence from her brother who was going through a very nasty divorce, and that it had to be his reading. I did tell her exactly what the cards were saying. Two weeks later she left her husband, left the house and left the kids. She let him know just how bitter she was. This was not a case of a self-fulfilling prophecy, although it may have triggered the divorce.

Cool story bro.

I am very particular about invoking a Power of Good before doing a reading, because readings can be influenced by mischievous spirits. If someone does not do this, then I would not trust them. I even do it when doing "fun" readings.

This is what I learned too. Even during my post-Christian neo-Pagan phase I was warned to stay away from Ouija boards, because the spirits they contact aren't genuine, they're just mischievous elementals who will mess with you just for fun.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Pixel42 is quite right. The default position is that the supernatural does not exist. I cannot prove it does exist.

I have given you my thoughts, and how I work with the cards. arthwollipot has a good deal of knowledge and it seems that we agree of a number of points, just not on the supernatural part.

I agree that it is possible to give readings without psychic ability and people will be wowed. I know people who do Tarot and have people so hooked they come once a week. Such people are frauds and con artists out for the money. They are not nice people in everyday life - the karmic consequence.

I am going to do the informal test and then get on with personal projects. So thanks for the opportunity to chat. Wishing you all well. Cheers

 

[PartSkeptic]

Just an afterthought...

So you don't let the querent shuffle the cards, even though it is through the reader's shuffle that the cards get their "non-randomness"? How does that work?

It is the readers shuffle that arranges the cards. Sometimes a card will "pop out", and have meaning. I have no idea of the mechanics or principles. I used my instincts as to what worked.

My advice: throw away the book. Let the pictures on the cards tell the story. The book constrains you into forcing a particular interpretation into the querent's head.

One would think so, but it is only an aid. I am free to say what I think it means.

Cool story bro.

I think so.

This is what I learned too. Even during my post-Christian neo-Pagan phase I was warned to stay away from Ouija boards, because the spirits they contact aren't genuine, they're just mischievous elementals who will mess with you just for fun.

I have had a lot of interesting experiences in my life. Many of them were chaos. Now my life is interesting but very pleasant. It may only be insurance and intention setting to have the beliefs I have, but my "luck" is very good.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is the readers shuffle that arranges the cards. Sometimes a card will "pop out", and have meaning. I have no idea of the mechanics or principles. I used my instincts as to what worked.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you said that it was the querent's shuffle that introduces non-randomness. I blame my head cold for this brain fart.

 

[Doppelgangerv314]

We (humans) have several biases in operation all the time. For one, we seem to remember the hits and forget the misses. You remember the things the cards got right and forget the dozens of things it got wrong. Also, you interpret the cards relative to your life, increasing the chances of it getting something right. YOU are doing all the work in your mind. It can be cards or it can be a video game storyline. If you believe it is predicting your life, you will believe it.

 

[arthwollipot]

We (humans) have several biases in operation all the time. For one, we seem to remember the hits and forget the misses. You remember the things the cards got right and forget the dozens of things it got wrong. Also, you interpret the cards relative to your life, increasing the chances of it getting something right. YOU are doing all the work in your mind. It can be cards or it can be a video game storyline. If you believe it is predicting your life, you will believe it.

Apart from the tautological last sentence, I agree completely.

 

[Hellbound]

Apart from the tautological last sentence, I agree completely.

A better phrasing might be "If you believe something is predicting your life, it will seem to."

 

[sackett]

Somewhere upstream I talked about making (and making up) your own tarot dreck, excuse me, deck. Now Captain Swoop has found us something even more sublimely goofy: a Stark Deck Treck -- dammit, there I go again.

Anyhoo, my point is that any tarot or tarot-like deck will work for fortune-telling. All that's required is a tad of talent at extrapolating from a random image, i.e., a slight gift for bullslinging, a candle-lit setting, and a sucker. (Okay, maybe some wine and a piece of a weird cigarette; look, I don't do this for a living.) You can even start convincing yourself if you don't look out.

What does that tell us about tarot cards? Nothing! But it tells us something about human suggestibility, and about the fun you can have with ambiguous images. Sometimes it's enjoyably scary fun. Is it anything more than that?

Not just no, but hell no.

 

[arthwollipot]

Quite correct. The Tarot images are well-developed archetypes, but really any set of random images would almost certainly do just as well if placed into a similar context.

 

[Drs_Res]

You can do readings with a standard deck of cards, no tarot deck required. This also gives you the ability to do readings anywhere there is a deck of cards.

 

[arthwollipot]

You can do readings with a standard deck of cards, no tarot deck required. This also gives you the ability to do readings anywhere there is a deck of cards.

There are also Tarot decks that just show "pips" without illustrations. But then you need to memorise the meanings for each card. Using an illustrated Tarot is a lot easier, for the reasons we've been discussing.

I also used to read runes, by the way, which also required memorising meanings for each rune.

 

[sackett]

Other types of random taradiddle

Many years ago, I had a poor daffball friend who was incapable of holding down even the easiest sort of job, and bopped around trying to support his unfortunate family with scams of one kind or another. He set himself up as a T’ai Chi teacher. He tried to sell Chinese herbs (without being able to read even one Chinese character). He tried inventing board games. Eventually, out of his quite sincere belief in the divinatory power of the I Ching, he dreamed up a set of cards that would supposedly improve on the traditional coin tossing and yarrow-stick tumbling. Each card was square and had a hexagram in the center. Near each of the four edges was a symbol for, as I recall, one of the twelve animals of the Chinese zodiac, and/or the Five Elements. Dunno how he got 12 and 5 to go around 64 cards with 256 edges; hardly matters, after all.

He tried to sell I Ching readings with his cards – at fifty bucks a pop, as I recall. He claimed that his system somehow gave consistent readings, with appropriate hexagams, animals, and elements -- not just your ordinary I Ching, man, but like tha rill thing! He depended on a then-popular – and cheaply available – translation of the I Ching for his interpretations. His laboriously hand-made cards soon got worn and dog-eared from sample demonstrations, and I doubt that very many $50 bills came his way. He left the country soon after, to live in the Black Forest with his wife’s relatives. Poor man, poor family, poor relatives.

And yet: His system worked just as well as tarot cards, or would have if he had possessed the slightest ability to con anybody but himself. A little preparation, a little theatre, a modest amount of improvisation, a smidgen of mood-setting, and it would have gone down like ham at Sunday breakfast. After all, the I Ching appears to be more systematic than tarot or runes, and an I Ching reading, which pretends to uncover tendencies rather than prophesies, can make you think about your life, perhaps even usefully. Of course, all of these mystical dolls’ houses work better if you buy the line.

 

[arthwollipot]

I've heard that only the Chinese can properly divine using I Ching, because its interpretations are strongly rooted in Chinese philosophy and folklore, which you would be familiar with if you'd grown up in China and its culture, but not if you grew up in the West. At the most extreme end of this claim, it's a "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" sort of thing - the interpretations only make sense in their proper cultural and mythological context.

 

[sackett]

Flapdoodle & Tarot Come to Town, Got Out They Cards & Really Got Down

...the interpretations only make sense in their proper cultural and mythological context.

If then.

 

[dlorde]

I've heard that only the Chinese can properly divine using I Ching, because its interpretations are strongly rooted in Chinese philosophy and folklore, which you would be familiar with if you'd grown up in China and its culture, but not if you grew up in the West. At the most extreme end of this claim, it's a "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" sort of thing - the interpretations only make sense in their proper cultural and mythological context.

It's probably true that you can more easily get a richer set of associations from culturally familiar myth and folklore, and so find greater depth and personal relevance, but just as with the tarot, an informed interpreter can assist with making the symbology culturally relevant to the queryer.

It's surprising how little assistive interpretation may be necessary - when I attended a day session on practical symbology a while ago, we tried the tarot and the I-Ching with a modicum of success, but what really got the 'sensitives' going was symbolic interpretation of randomly selected postcards (brought in by the tutors). A postcard showing a a sea view with yachts was interpreted by one person as an unambiguous message from the great beyond that she was right to book a holiday on the coast instead of in the countryside (in defiance of her husband)... there were several similar examples, some quite elaborately creative, each of which was enthusiastically reinforced and celebrated by the few other like-minded individuals while the rest of us looked on, open-mouthed.

 

[arthwollipot]

It's probably true that you can more easily get a richer set of associations from culturally familiar myth and folklore, and so find greater depth and personal relevance, but just as with the tarot, an informed interpreter can assist with making the symbology culturally relevant to the queryer.

It's surprising how little assistive interpretation may be necessary - when I attended a day session on practical symbology a while ago, we tried the tarot and the I-Ching with a modicum of success, but what really got the 'sensitives' going was symbolic interpretation of randomly selected postcards (brought in by the tutors). A postcard showing a a sea view with yachts was interpreted by one person as an unambiguous message from the great beyond that she was right to book a holiday on the coast instead of in the countryside (in defiance of her husband)... there were several similar examples, some quite elaborately creative, each of which was enthusiastically reinforced and celebrated by the few other like-minded individuals while the rest of us looked on, open-mouthed.

Excellent. This is a perfect example of what I've been saying. Furthermore, it is the context that prompts such creativity. In this case, it was a class on symbology - they were there expecting and intending to find symbolic analogs. In Tarot, it's the context of a "reading" where someone is expecting and intending to find interpretations that can be applied to their life, or answers to specific questions.

 

[PartSkeptic]

What you guys are saying is that no matter whether anyone has talent, people act on the readings. They are influenced to do something they might not have done.

Most of the time it would not mean anything to do A instead of B - but IF there are hidden influences, they could decide to make a card pop up, and the untalented reader say something to influence a life- changing decision.

Since many on this forum don't believe in "hidden influences" then the above will be met with "show us the money... er... I mean proof".