What did viruses do before the Fall?

[TimCallahan]

Here's a question for DOC, edge, AvalonXQ and any other creationists on this forum: What did viruses do before the Fall of Man? Creationists explain such evils as predation and parasitism as resulting from God's curse on g=creation following the Fall of Man. It's their way of dealing with the less benign aspects of nature. Before the Fall, they argue, all species of animal were herbivores. All of the nasty stuff - not only predation and parasitism, but hernias and fallen arches - came about as a result of the Fall.

Consider two species of bacteria from the genus Clostridium, C. tetani and C. botulinum, the causative agents, respectively, of tetanus and botulism. In the soil, they are beneficial to all life, since they affix atmospheric nitrogen. The creationist argument would be that, before the fall, all these bacteria did was to live in the soil and affix nitrogen. As a result of the Fall, they were corrupted to the point that they created lethal poisons.

However, how do creationists account for viruses? They do nothing other than hijack the genetic and protein making machinery of the cells they infect to create new viruses. In the process, they destroy the host cell. They are obligate parasites. So, creationists, what did viruses do before the fall?

 

[The Nimble Pianist]

However, how do creationists account for viruses? They do nothing other than hijack the genetic and protein making machinery of the cells they infect to create new viruses. In the process, they destroy the host cell. They are obligate parasites. So, creationists, what did viruses do before the fall?

Maybe prior to The Fall they were bound to the lysogenic and productive cycles of reproduction in which lysis of the host cell does not occur?

/devil's ad.

 

[madurobob]

Just curious - why do we have to assume that viruses existed before the Fall?

 

[TimCallahan]

Maybe prior to The Fall they were bound to the lysogenic and productive cycles of reproduction in which lysis of the host cell does not occur?

/devil's ad.

From what I know of the lysogenic cycle, which, admittedly, isn't much, the first step in lysogenesis involves uploading, as it were, the viral genes into the host's DNA. Thus, they would still be around as obligate parasites before the fall. I've heard of legitimate theories that viruses can transmit genes across species lines as retroviruses, and that these genes enhance survival.

The problem with this from a creationist perspective is that the world before the fall was supposed to be perfect, hence no need for adaptation, mutations or any sort of genetic change.

 

[I Ratant]

If they were slow acting, there wasn't much time to do much of anything between the Creation and the Fall.
They, dare I say it, evolved to real nastyhood given the lives of the descendants.

 

[TimCallahan]

Just curious - why do we have to assume that viruses existed before the Fall?

If they didn't exist before the fall, then creationists would have to explain how a new "kind" came into existence after the Fall. They would have had to evolve from bacteria, being pared down to a bare minimum and developing the enzymes required to hijack the host cell's reproductive machinery. All this would have to have been accomplished in a thousand years or so, when creationists argue that, even given a a geologic time scale, there's no way adaptive change can occur by means of random mutation and natural selection. Thus, for viruses to evolve ( or even devolve) to such a great degree in so short a time, violates creationists' own arguments against evolution.

Thus, the only way viruses, in a creationist scenario, could have appeared after the Fall is God-did-it. One might argue that this only applies to young earth creationists. However, old earth creationists are still stuck with viruses either being in existence before the Fall or having them appear or be radically altered only a few thousand years ago, after the Fall of Man. I'll have to find out what Hugh Ross believes regarding viruses.

 

[Trakar]

Here's a question for DOC, edge, AvalonXQ and any other creationists on this forum: What did viruses do before the Fall of Man?...

The "Fall" is metaphoric. No literal Adam, no literal Eve, no literal expulsion from a literal garden paradise.

 

[madurobob]

Thus, the only way viruses, in a creationist scenario, could have appeared after the Fall is God-did-it. One might argue that this only applies to young earth creationists. However, old earth creationists are still stuck with viruses either being in existence before the Fall or having them appear or be radically altered only a few thousand years ago, after the Fall of Man. I'll have to find out what Hugh Ross believes regarding viruses.

Thanks - just what I suspected. If I were aping a creationist I think I would simply say that viruses came into being at the Fall. That is, god created them as part of the tumultuous events of the Fall. But, of course, that may open up some other loopholes/inconsistencies in the process. Its also a mighty big assumption without supporting evidence.

Anyway, I'll enjoy watching this debate unfold.

 

[TimCallahan]

The "Fall" is metaphoric. No literal Adam, no literal Eve, no literal expulsion from a literal garden paradise.

That's fine. However, creationists, particularly YECs, do not see it that way. For them, the whole thing is literal.

 

[truethat]

Just curious - why do we have to assume that viruses existed before the Fall?

Yeah I was gonna say, seems like they'd just deny they ever existed.

 

[GeneMachine]

That's fine. However, creationists, particularly YECs, do not see it that way. For them, the whole thing is literal.

Tim, with all due respect, I think that line of argumentation is basically useless. You can't catch them on any inconsistencies of their "literal" reading, because literalism is everything but not literal.

Stuff that is not mentioned anywhere gets included in the narrative, because it being not mentioned obviously literally means that it was so.

Stuff that is mentioned is read in every sense but the literal, because, obviously, you have the historically 500 years younger Book of whatever into account to arrive at the correct literal reading.

In other words, they have quantum goalposts. Where they stand is only determined after you ask a question.

 

[Trakar]

That's fine. However, creationists, particularly YECs, do not see it that way. For them, the whole thing is literal.

I am a creationist. Not a YEC, but I do believe that God created the universe according to His plan and design. And, my statement stands.

 

[TimCallahan]

I am a creationist. Not a YEC, but I do believe that God created the universe according to His plan and design. And, my statement stands.

When you say you are a creationist but not a YEC, does that mean you are an old earth creationist (OEC) or a theistic evolutionist?

As to my question about what viruses did before the Fall, it was specifically directed to YECs, such as, for example, DOC, edge and AvalonXQ. You and I probably don't have any quarrel on the subject of viruses.

 

[TimCallahan]

Tim, with all due respect, I think that line of argumentation is basically useless. You can't catch them on any inconsistencies of their "literal" reading, because literalism is everything but not literal.

Stuff that is not mentioned anywhere gets included in the narrative, because it being not mentioned obviously literally means that it was so.

Stuff that is mentioned is read in every sense but the literal, because, obviously, you have the historically 500 years younger Book of whatever into account to arrive at the correct literal reading.

In other words, they have quantum goalposts. Where they stand is only determined after you ask a question.

Excellent ponts, but I'd really like to see what DOC, edge and AvalonXQ have to say on the subject - assuming they'll even respond.

 

[TimCallahan]

Yeah I was gonna say, seems like they'd just deny they ever existed.

See post #6.

 

[Trakar]

When you say you are a creationist but not a YEC, does that mean you are an old earth creationist (OEC) or a theistic evolutionist?

As to my question about what viruses did before the Fall, it was specifically directed to YECs, such as, for example, DOC, edge and AvalonXQ. You and I probably don't have any quarrel on the subject of viruses.

I believe that the Creator initiated the universe according to a plan (a creator, not a tinkerer). We may have issues about creation, but we probably have greatly similar understandings about viruses.

 

[Dog Breakfast]

Viruses were herbivores before the Fall.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I am a creationist. Not a YEC, but I do believe that God created the universe according to His plan and design. And, my statement stands.

And you also have your own very specific interpretation of your religion though you seem to enjoy answering broadly encompassing questions about theology based on your own nearly private version of Catholicism, as if most everyone else just has it all wrong. As I recall you still trust in your priest to interpret the truths of scripture for you, do you not?

 

[ugot2bekidding]

... the world before the fall was supposed to be perfect,

Can someone explain how a 'perfect' world can fall? That's the part of this story that bugs me the most.

 

[Toontown]

God is the one who fell. He broke it, He bought it.

So what's taking Him so long to clean up His mess? I think we all have valid lawsuits against him.

Particularly in the matter of the corruption of everything. We have to live in this craphole He's corrupted. Where does He get off, with all His blaming helpless monkeys for all His screwups?

Enough already. I want reparations. Big reparations. No silly little harp and tiny little cloud to sit on. I want a planet. An entire, pristine planet with a temperate climate and no predators and no ravenous, bloodsucking bugs. And lots of fine women. And immortality. And no enemies.

And lots of other stuff, too numerous to mention. He can afford it. It's not like He's going to run out of nothing to make stuff out of.

And I'm willing to negotiate a settlement if He wants to be reasonable and not drag this out.