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Transgender woman kicked out of beauty contest

RandFan said:
I accept that Ms. Talackova is a woman. I didn't always think that people born with XY chromosomes could be women but that was before I studied developmental biology and the many issues associated with reproduction and development. Gender is not the binary absolute that matches our chromosomes. Those who think that Ms. Talackova is quite simply a man are ignorant of scientific facts.

I thank Dr. Steven Novella of NESS for pointing me in the right direction.
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Got a link?
 
Kahalachan said:
Is transgender some kind of new woo where people deny biology?

Biologically Jenna is a male and psychologically she is a girl.

This isn't like citizenship where you're born something but can change it legally and socially. Biology and evolution divide our genders because we are sexually reproducing animals. When the day comes where we can switch something born a male to a sexually reproducing female and vice versa and completely reverse sexuality, then I guess we can change that.

Respectfully I call Jenna a girl. Sexually, Jenna is attractive to me as a straight male. Objectively and officially she is a guy.
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If you have some insight as to how to determine biological sex 100% of the time, I would be really interested to hear it.
 
Arcade22 said:
Because it's a WOMANS beauty contest. If you're a guy there's Mr universe i guess. Why can't some people just play by the rules?
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Which rules? And why do I always read you in a slightly ironic tone that leaves me confused as to whether you are sincere or just mocking something? </personalhangup>

Kahalachan said:
Is transgender some kind of new woo where people deny biology?

Biologically Jenna is a male and psychologically she is a girl.

This isn't like citizenship where you're born something but can change it legally and socially. Biology and evolution divide our genders because we are sexually reproducing animals. When the day comes where we can switch something born a male to a sexually reproducing female and vice versa and completely reverse sexuality, then I guess we can change that.

Respectfully I call Jenna a girl. Sexually, Jenna is attractive to me as a straight male. Objectively and officially she is a guy.
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I'm not sure about the highlighted part. Given that she seems to have undergone the surgery I suspect she is officially a woman.

Kahalachan said:
It's still woo-ish. The notion that what we want changes objective reality.
I'm born a human male. I can't change the human part. I can't change the male part. Biology flat out said what I am.
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Biology has a say about how your genitals look and what hormones you produce. But it gets fuzzy even there with the intersexed. Surgery can change that a lot. Hormones do the same to your body. If the only relevant difference in function as a female is being able to get birth your definition of woman makes women after menopause not women.
And what's more relevant: There isn't just the biological sex but also the societal gender. Which of those is more relevant? Should people who get treated as women not be treated as women in instances where biology actually does not matter? I have a hard time seeing biology play a role in a beauty contest that does not have caveats about surgical enhancements in general.
 
Kahalachan said:
Yet there my point stands awaiting to be refuted.

I can think I'm a female horse, but that doesn't change the fact I am a human male.

Sex = biology. Gender = psychology.

Her sex is male, her gender is female.
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I'll accept your premise that sex=male. I don't accept that gender counter to sex is a delusion. If you think you are a horse you are deluded. A man who thinks he is a woman could be deluded but that isn't the case for many transgendered people (dysphoria). Gender is a complex issue and isn't simply what a person believes in relation to one's sex.
 
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Tatyana said:
If you have some insight as to how to determine biological sex 100% of the time, I would be really interested to hear it.
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I could hold a contest for the best white female Canadian chess player.

Criteria is as follows:

1. 50% of their lineage must trace from west of the Urals and north of the Mediterranean.
2. They must possess the XX chromosome with no other existing medically defined gender syndromes.
3. They must be a natural Canadian citizen
4. They win my chess tournament.

Is my contest somehow immoral cause I reject people who don't meet this criteria?

It's just an arbitrary contest.

Edit:


RandFan said:
I'll accept your premise that sex=male. I don't accept that gender counter to sex is a delusion. If you think you are a horse you are deluded. A man who thinks he is a woman could be deluded but that isn't the case for many transgendered people (dysphoria). Gender is a complex issue and isn't simply what a person believes in relation to one's sex.
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Yes horse was a bit of a strawman. But my point is that it is that rules of a contest are going to be based on objective reality. Regardless of the fact that someone truly feels female, they still fail to meet the requirements of participation.
 
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Most beauty contests also ban women who have ever been married, or who have children, so transgender people being ineligible doesn't surprise me at all.
 
tyr_13 said:
Are other enhancements allowed in this competition? If not, that seems a clear enough reason. If they are, not so much.

Male to female transgender aren't allowed to compete in many sports events for obvious reasons.
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I'm curious about that. Given the high dosage of female hormones used for transition I'm having a bit of hard time understanding what exact advantage over born females they actually have. Size? Muscle to bodyfat? (Which afaik is a tie between hormones and genes.)
 
Pardalis said:
Got a link?
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No offense, this is basic human biology 101.

I am always surprised people just don't know this sort of thing.

Females only need one X chromosome, which is why the second condenses and becomes a Barr body at about 6 weeks of development.

This is why there are sex linked genetic disorders, the Y chromosome only carries very few genes that are mostly concerned with becoming male, the X chromosome is a full complement of various genes, so if there is an issue with one of the genes on one of the X chromosomes, the foetus can use the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barr_body

Chromosomal sexual differentiation is only the first stage in about four or five steps. Just because a foetus has XX or XY is no guarantee it will be female or male respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/142/8/3281.full##
 
Kahalachan said:
Yet there my point stands awaiting to be refuted.

I can think I'm a female horse, but that doesn't change the fact I am a human male.


Sex = biology. Gender = psychology.

Her sex is male, her gender is female.
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And the biology is far more complicated than what you think.

Sorry, you are wrong in your primary assertion.
 
Pardalis said:
Got a link?
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Most of what I know comes from books I have read. Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality was the most important. Also The Blank Slate and numerous books on cognitive science.

Dysphoria/GID. NESS (I recommend writing Dr. Novella but I can't guarantee that he will will respond. He's responded to about half of all of my requests).
 
Kahalachan said:
But my point is that it is that rules of a contest are going to be based on objective reality. Regardless of the fact that someone truly feels female, they still fail to meet the requirements of participation.
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Neural correlates are objectively real. What do the requirements say?
 
Kahalachan said:
I could hold a contest for the best white female Canadian chess player.

Criteria is as follows:

1. 50% of their lineage must trace from west of the Urals and north of the Mediterranean.
2. They must possess the XX chromosome with no other existing medically defined gender syndromes.
3. They must be a natural Canadian citizen
4. They win my chess tournament.

Is my contest somehow immoral cause I reject people who don't meet this criteria?

It's just an arbitrary contest.

Edit:





Yes horse was a bit of a strawman. But my point is that it is that rules of a contest are going to be based on objective reality. Regardless of the fact that someone truly feels female, they still fail to meet the requirements of participation.
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Isn't it interesting your criteria for determining female sex is pushing 30 years out of date.

A biological woman does not need to be XX.

Looking for a Barr body to determine biological sex was eliminated from the International Olympic Committees ruling in something like 1993.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/olympics-sex-test-583
 
Kahalachan said:
Yet there my point stands awaiting to be refuted.

I can think I'm a female horse, but that doesn't change the fact I am a human male.


Sex = biology. Gender = psychology.

Her sex is male, her gender is female.

Professor Yaffle said:
Real life doesn't always fit into those neat little boxes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
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For the very simple reason that human psychology is a very complex thing. The brain is very likely the most complex system in the entire Universe. It's absurd that we think it should fit into neat little boxes (once we know the facts).

It's quite likely that few if any of us are actually discretely male or female. Developmental biologists tell us we all start out female.
 
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Pardalis said:
Is Miss Talackova suffering from these conditions? She said she's born a male.
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Not that I know of, but I see transgenderism is comparable to other intersex conditions, we just haven't worked out all the biology yet. In some, the condition affects how the whole body the whole body develops, but in others it affects the brain only. Those were just examples of how the boundary is not as clear cut as you would think.

Would you allow someone into the competition who had androgen insensitivity, with XY sex chromosomes, but born female? What about someone (either XX or XY) who had surgery as an infant and assigned them to a different sex to that indicated by their chromosomes. What about if the same surgery was done much later?
 
RandFan said:
Neural correlates are objectively real. What do the requirements say?
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The link said something about contestants having to be born female.

I doubt Miss Universe is going to have well defined biological rules. But the contestant admitted to being born male.

If this was a topic like "Should Miss Universe's rules be changed to allow transgenders?" then I would say yes.

But the topic was about a woman being kicked out of a contest for not being a valid contestant. I don't see a problem.
 
Kahalachan said:
The link said something about contestants having to be born female.

I doubt Miss Universe is going to have well defined biological rules. But the contestant admitted to being born male.

If this was a topic like "Should Miss Universe's rules be changed to allow transgenders?" then I would say yes.

But the topic was about a woman being kicked out of a contest for not being a valid contestant. I don't see a problem.
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If that is the case then I can understand but I too think the rules should be changed.
 
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