The American term "liberal" is meaningless...

Humes fork said:
...because it is so very broad. Both Noam Chomsky and John Kerry are labelled "liberals" in the US, and the difference in opinion between them is wider than the political spectrum in I think any western European country.
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This just speaks to the paucity of political thought in western Europe. Founders forbid that America ever become so bankrupt of political ideas that their entire spectrum of debate is encompassed by a word which at present doesn't even cover half the range of American politics!
 
theprestige said:
This just speaks to the paucity of political thought in western Europe. Founders forbid that America ever become so bankrupt of political ideas that their entire spectrum of debate is encompassed by a word which at present doesn't even cover half the range of American politics!
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Yeah, but as it happens Hume's Fork is wrong. For example, there are plenty of fascist parties that wouldn't appear on any part of the Chomsky-Kerry Spectrum such as the BNP, Vlaams Belang and Front Nationale (in France up to 20 per cent of the electorate actually go out and vote Fascist! - and in this case even Orwell might agree that the FN are genuinely fascist.) and then there are Green Parties in most of these countries and also full-blooded Socialist Parties (i.e they actually call themselves socialist and don't consider the term a slander) or even Communist Parties (admittedly not very big these days in most countries).
 
angrysoba said:
Yeah, but as it happens Hume's Fork is wrong. For example, there are plenty of fascist parties that wouldn't appear on any part of the Chomsky-Kerry Spectrum such as the BNP, Vlaams Belang and Front Nationale (in France up to 20 per cent of the electorate actually go out and vote Fascist! - and in this case even Orwell might agree that the FN are genuinely fascist.) and then there are Green Parties in most of these countries and also full-blooded Socialist Parties (i.e they actually call themselves socialist and don't consider the term a slander) or even Communist Parties (admittedly not very big these days in most countries).
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canada's current opposition party is a self-proclaimed socialist party.
 
bikerdruid said:
canada's current opposition party is a self-proclaimed socialist party.
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Yes, but that's Canada. I think the OP was discussing America (the US) and comparing it to Western Europe.

Although if you want to talk about other "Western-style democratic" countries then Australia's Liberal Party is actually conservative while Japan's Liberal Democratic Party is actually illiberal, undemocratic and no kind of party.
 
angrysoba said:
Yes, but that's Canada. I think the OP was discussing America (the US) and comparing it to Western Europe.

Although if you want to talk about other "Western-style democratic" countries then Australia's Liberal Party is actually conservative while Japan's Liberal Democratic Party is actually illiberal, undemocratic and no kind of party.
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you were the one that mentioned other countries, when you wrote,"and then there are Green Parties in most of these countries and also full-blooded Socialist Parties (i.e they actually call themselves socialist and don't consider the term a slander) or even Communist Parties (admittedly not very big these days in most countries)."

......i was merely giving a concrete example.
 
bikerdruid said:
you were the one that mentioned other countries, when you wrote,"and then there are Green Parties in most of these countries and also full-blooded Socialist Parties (i.e they actually call themselves socialist and don't consider the term a slander) or even Communist Parties (admittedly not very big these days in most countries)."

......i was merely giving a concrete example.
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Yes, but last time I checked Canada wasn't in Western Europe.

Nevermind.
 
Humes fork said:
From a European point of view, an American describing himself or herself as a "liberal" can mean damn near anything. European elections to Americans must all look like elections between different shades of liberals rather than between liberals and conservatives.
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Actually - from an American point of view - we Europeans are socialists alltogether, while they pretty much all look like "far right extremist fundamentalists" to us. :p
 
bikerdruid said:
The American term "liberal" is meaningless...

absolutely.
also, the american usage of 'the left' is also meaniingless.
basically, any social/political thought left of fascist, is viewed by the american 'right' as 'left', or 'liberal'.
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Says the one who admires P.É. Trudeau, the guy who sent the army on the streets of Montréal.
 
bikerdruid said:
....to combat FLQ terrorists that had kidnapped two, and murdered one government official
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A dozen of so who were already known to the police.

They arrested 500. I call that fear tactics.

Sorry, but your hero was a fascist.
 
Liberal, conservative, lefty, right-winger...all of these words were invented by the media or people in power to control the unthinking masses into thinking the world is much more simple and black-and-white than it is.

Case in point: George W. Bush was socially conservative but fiscally liberal.

These made up words are absolutely ridonkulous!
 
angrysoba said:
Yeah, but as it happens Hume's Fork is wrong. For example, there are plenty of fascist parties that wouldn't appear on any part of the Chomsky-Kerry Spectrum such as the BNP, Vlaams Belang and Front Nationale (in France up to 20 per cent of the electorate actually go out and vote Fascist! - and in this case even Orwell might agree that the FN are genuinely fascist.) and then there are Green Parties in most of these countries and also full-blooded Socialist Parties (i.e they actually call themselves socialist and don't consider the term a slander) or even Communist Parties (admittedly not very big these days in most countries).
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But Chomsky is to the left of these self-proclaimed socialist parties. To my knowledge, they don't really aim for abolishing capitalism and wage labor, which Chomsky would. And they don't seek to abolish the state either.
 
ETA said:
Liberal, conservative, lefty, right-winger...all of these words were invented by the media or people in power to control the unthinking masses into thinking the world is much more simple and black-and-white than it is.

Case in point: George W. Bush was socially conservative but fiscally liberal.

These made up words are absolutely ridonkulous!
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And keep in mind that liberal has a different meaning in Europe than in the US. I don't think the German and Swiss liberal parties are anything an American self-identified liberal would recognize themselves in. European liberalism is like a moderate version of American libertarianism, not at all a synonyme for social democracy.
 
bikerdruid said:
The American term "liberal" is meaningless...

absolutely.
also, the american usage of 'the left' is also meaniingless.
basically, any social/political thought left of fascist, is viewed by the american 'right' as 'left', or 'liberal'.
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also, the american usage of 'the right' is also meaniingless.
basically, any social/political thought not full-on committed to micromanaging 'socialjustice', is viewed by the american 'left' as 'rightwing', or 'Tbagger'.
 
So if both those statements are true, most of one half of the country is only interested in extreme socialism/communism (and calls everything else fascist), and most of the other half is only interested in fascism (and calls everything else socialist/communist).

Or, those generalizations might be slightly overstated.
 
Well, the US is rather right-leaning compared to the rest of the industrialized world, and is still shifting right.

I don't know if there is a major leftist movement anymore in the US.

Obama would be considered a moderately conservative most anywhere else. In fact, his policies are similar to those of Republicans from a few decades ago.

For support: http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...blican/2011/04/25/AFPrGfkE_story.html?hpid=z9
 
After having gotten some flack in another thread in which it was stated that there is a meaningful definition of an American liberal by which Chomsky is not one, could someone here please tell me of that? Do you think Wikipedia's description is accurate? What about this FAQ?

Let's restrict ourselves here to the American definition of liberalism, and leave out the European one.

rustypouch said:
Obama would be considered a moderately conservative most anywhere else.
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And keep in mind that conservatives in Europe tend not to endorse capital punishment...
 
Humes fork said:
...because it is so very broad. Both Noam Chomsky and John Kerry are labelled "liberals" in the US, and the difference in opinion between them is wider than the political spectrum in I think any western European country.

Noam Chomsky wants wage labor abolished, as well as the state itself. I'm not aware of any left-wing political party with political representation in Europe that has these on its platform.

John Kerry on the other hand opposes universal healthcare. I don't know of any right-wing party with political representation that is opposed to universal healthcare.

From a European point of view, an American describing himself or herself as a "liberal" can mean damn near anything. European elections to Americans must all look like elections between different shades of liberals rather than between liberals and conservatives.
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I usually prefer Demoncat or moron. I like Demoncat better.
 
Oliver said:
Actually - from an American point of view - we Europeans are socialists alltogether, while they pretty much all look like "far right extremist fundamentalists" to us. :p
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Yes you guys are hardcore socialists. And weiners. Buncha wussies can't do anything on your own I swear.
 
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