The grand NHS shake-up

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
Undesired Walrus
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Apr 10, 2007
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So I keep hearing that this is the end of the NHS and that it is the biggest reform ever. Can someone explain to me what it's all about?
 
Do you mean to tell me that socialized medicine does not work?

Just when America takes it's first steps in that direction. ;)

Or maybe they are only starting a requirement for "science based medicine? I hope.
 
casebro said:
Do you mean to tell me that socialized medicine does not work?

Just when America takes it's first steps in that direction. ;)

Or maybe they are only starting a requirement for "science based medicine? I hope.
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I think that in the cases I have known about it's more a case of right wing politicians hating the idea of having a health care system that they can't allow their mates to have shares in so they can make even more money, so when they get the chance they like to try and damage and destroy it hoping that once they have done enough to screw it up, everyone will throw their hands in the air and go private, then they can shut it down and sell it all off.
 
casebro said:
Do you mean to tell me that socialized medicine does not work?

Just when America takes it's first steps in that direction. ;)

Or maybe they are only starting a requirement for "science based medicine? I hope.
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"Socialized" medicine is a derogatory term aimed at provision of health services. It has nothing to do with how medicine is developed.

OP, could we have a link to this story on the dismantling of the NHS?
 
casebro said:
Do you mean to tell me that socialized medicine does not work?

Just when America takes it's first steps in that direction. ;)

Or maybe they are only starting a requirement for "science based medicine? I hope.
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No, it is about changing how the NHS is funded and putting the GPs (which we have and the US has a shortage of), in charge of all the funding, including the hospitals.

Right now, various hospitals manage their own funding (NHS Trust hospitals), and GP or areas of GPs have their own separate funding.

I am not sure what you mean by 'science based medicine' as the NHS is one of the only UHC systems in the world that has an science based organisation for recommendations (NICE).
 
Undesired Walrus said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...hows-cameron-in-his-true-colours-2186973.html


I don't really understand this. I know it has something to do with GPs getting control of the money but other than that..
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Here's what's going to happen:

1) GP's get put in charge of commissioning patient care.

2) GP's employ private firms to do the commissioning because they want to make as much money as possible for the minimum amount of effort (i.e., they're human beings).

3) NHS hospitals, offering comprehensive treatment have to compete with specialist, high profit private hospitals for the money. Many of the firms used by GPs will have financial interests in the private hospitals.

4) The private hospitals take all the easy, profit generating work away from the NHS hospitals, leaving them with the complex, loss making stuff.

5) The "failing" NHS hospitals are effectively sold to the for profit companies, who drastically cut the loss making care to the bare minimum required by the regulator.

And that's how you privatise a national health service.
 
I've not gone through it all and I freely admit I will start from a biased position given it has come from the Tories but if it results in better outcomes it would be hard to argue against.
 
Darat said:
I've not gone through it all and I freely admit I will start from a biased position given it has come from the Tories but if it results in better outcomes it would be hard to argue against.
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Is there anything to suggest that results will improve? Moving towards privatisation of our health service would suggest moving towards the american model, and i'm not sure now is a good time to start spending twice as much per person on healthcare for the same results, considering the economic state we're in.
 
stokes234 said:
Is there anything to suggest that results will improve? Moving towards privatisation of our health service would suggest moving towards the american model, and i'm not sure now is a good time to start spending twice as much per person on healthcare for the same results, considering the economic state we're in.
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I don't know. What I do know is that I would not like my GP to become more of a business.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Here's what's going to happen:

1) GP's get put in charge of commissioning patient care.
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Can you explain this a bit further? So if I go to the GP with -say- Generalised Anxiety Disorder they can decide where they want to send me? I thought this is what happened already.
 
Darat said:
I've not gone through it all and I freely admit I will start from a biased position given it has come from the Tories but if it results in better outcomes it would be hard to argue against.
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How can it possibly result in better outcomes when the objectives of the providers of care and their patients are so misaligned?

When you visit your doctor in 2015 just remind him or her that you're aware that doctors are more interested in making a profit than providing you with the care you need. When they start making recommendations ask for a second (and possibly third) opinion before you decide.

You know, like you do with plumbers and other tradesmen.
 
Darat said:
I don't know. What I do know is that I would not like my GP to become more of a business.
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Agreed - healthcare and profit motivation, in my opinion, should be kept as seperate as possible. I'm going to be keeping an eye out for demonstrations against this. I don't want my tax money being spent on ridiculous corporate wages.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Can you explain this a bit further? So if I go to the GP with -say- Generalised Anxiety Disorder they can decide where they want to send me? I thought this is what happened already.
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According to Polly Toynbee -
Polly Toynbee said:
Naive GPs who fondly imagine they can choose where to send patients may get a nasty shock. Monitor, whose role was limited to scrutinising foundation hospitals, has been re-born as a regulator whose first task is "to promote competition". For the first time the NHS is opened to EU competition law. If a consortium keeps a relationship with a trusted local hospital, it may find itself challenged in court by any private company claiming the right to outbid. Neither GPs nor patients will control who is treated where: the law will decide."
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Undesired Walrus said:
Can you explain this a bit further? So if I go to the GP with -say- Generalised Anxiety Disorder they can decide where they want to send me? I thought this is what happened already.
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The difference is that under the proposed reforms the GPs and the private companies they use could maximise profit by either denying treatment or providing access to less expensive (i.e. not as good) care.

Ultimately patients will be in competition with their doctor to get the health care they need.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Here's what's going to happen:

1) GP's get put in charge of commissioning patient care.

2) GP's employ private firms to do the commissioning because they want to make as much money as possible for the minimum amount of effort (i.e., they're human beings).

3) NHS hospitals, offering comprehensive treatment have to compete with specialist, high profit private hospitals for the money. Many of the firms used by GPs will have financial interests in the private hospitals.

4) The private hospitals take all the easy, profit generating work away from the NHS hospitals, leaving them with the complex, loss making stuff.

5) The "failing" NHS hospitals are effectively sold to the for profit companies, who drastically cut the loss making care to the bare minimum required by the regulator.

And that's how you privatise a national health service.
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Thats my understanding of it.

ETA: This is classic divide and conquer tactics, disgusting stuff from the Tories and Lib Dems. But we'll blindly walk into it.

Anyone, what was in the Tory or Lib Dems manifesto regarding this?
 
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Delscottio said:
Thats my understanding of it.

ETA: This is classic divide and conquer tactics, disgusting stuff from the Tories and Lib Dems. But we'll blindly walk into it.

Anyone, what was in the Tory or Lib Dems manifesto regarding this?
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It wasn't indeed a Cameron made a lot about not doing this type of reorganisation (watch how the phrase "top down" will be used to show this is different).

On a political note - I do find it rich how the Tories and Lib Dems used ot complain that Brown didn't "have a mandate" - neither the Tories or the Lib Dems got a mandate from the general election and certainly not for the radical reforms they are now introducing.
 
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