another kook for you guys to 'debunk'

[triforcharity]

What would happen to the explosives if they started burning? Might they detonate? Oh no!

The crash would presumably fulfill the purpose that any explosives that were destroyed by it would have. Other explosives on other floors would still be there. I don't see what the problem is, especially if you can get your mind out of the conventional CD thinking.

No, they would not detonate. They would burn just like anything else in the towers.

The problem is predicting which floors to put the explosives.

Do you understand how difficult that would be?

 

[triforcharity]

Arrgh! So close! And then, for reasons unknown, you pick the one answer that isn't supported by any historical precedents, passing by the other answer that is. A clear cut example of inability to use a scientific standard.

Really? Fire cannot harm steel in any way?

Whew! That is some new discovery. Someone tell the guys at Rouge Steel that they haven't existed sine around 1920.

 

[triforcharity]

Why do you keep repeating this as if it's true? What examples are you referring to?

Kader Toy Factory
Sight and Sound Theature
The Windsor Tower
The Furniture store in Charleston SC

Those are just 4.

I have many more.

 

[leftysergeant]

The loud bangs of conventional CD? There's another thread here discussing the thermate experiments of Jon Cole.

Cole has still not shown that it could be done without leaving a huge red-flagged pile of residues. He is irrelevant.

And you repeatedly ignore eyewitness and survivor testimonials in favour of your "no explosion" fantasy. Or you try and interpret for them what they heard. This is what passes for "analysis" and scientific inquiry with bee dunkers.

We have the credentials to call MacQueen's summary of what was report complete and utter rubbish. We have the language skills and the ability to read the time lines and conclude that there were other events going on out of visula range of some of the witnesses. We have the experience to know the difference between fire expressed from a burning floor during collapse and fire expelled by high explosive detinations. You haven't. That simple.

Verinage is a rubble-driven collapse.

 

[leftysergeant]

Why do you keep repeating this as if it's true? What examples are you referring to?

You misquoted the man. You then left out "partial" collapses. Bad twoofer! BAD!

Windsor Tower was a partial collapse, involving ALL steel structures above the arresting structure, due ENTIRELY to fire.

 

[leftysergeant]

Kader Toy Factory
Sight and Sound Theature
The Windsor Tower
The Furniture store in Charleston SC

Those are just 4.

I have many more.

The most important is McCormick Place. Big bloody free span steel structure, similar in all meanigful ways to the floors of the WTC.

 

[ergo]

Dave Rogers keeps insisting that there are numerous steel framed buildings which have experienced total collapse by fire.

I've corrected him, and yourselves, on this point.

Once again:

Kader Toy Factory - the shoddily built Thai sweatshop. Complete collapse? Details are fuzzy. I don't think so.
Sight and Sound Theature - roof collapse only
The Windsor Tower - not a complete collapse
The Furniture store in Charleston SC - this is a new one! - roof collapse only

Those are just 4.

No, those aren't any.

I have many more.

Go ahead.

 

[ergo]

McCormick Place.

Roof collapse only.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Only in twoofer land is several examples of smaller buildings collapsing from fire with less weight involved proof that a larger buildings collapse from fire with many times more weight involved couldn't collapse...

 

[triforcharity]

Dave Rogers keeps insisting that there are numerous steel framed buildings which have experienced total collapse by fire.

Yes, and you still don't understand them. Do you realize how many steel framed structures collapse from fire every year?

HUNDREDS. Possibly THOUSANDS.

It's not uncommon at all. Most you will not hear much about, because they are so common. Unless there is a controversy (such as the Sight and Sound Theature, that had exceptions made to the local fire codes to save money, or make something less unsightly) or a firefighter death ( 9 firefighters died in the Sofa Store fire in Charleston. It took just 30 minutes to cause the collapse of the steel roof, here is the link BTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_Sofa_Super_Store_fire ) you won't hear much about them.

I've corrected him, and yourselves, on this point.

No, you THINK you have corrected us. However, you are missing the point. These fires specifically show that fire and steel do not play well together. Fire in a steel framed structure will cause the collapse. Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't make it false.

Once again:

Kader Toy Factory - the shoddily built Thai sweatshop. Complete collapse? Details are fuzzy. I don't think so.

Argument from personal ignorance and poisoning the well. Cool! Can you fit another logical fallacy in there?

Sight and Sound Theature - roof collapse only

Yes, and what if there had been another floor on top of that?

The Windsor Tower - not a complete collapse

The ENTIRE steel framed part of the structure COLLAPSED. The only part that did NOT collapse, was because it was CONCRETE framed. Do you understand what this means?

The Furniture store in Charleston SC - this is a new one! - roof collapse only

Yeah, and it only took 30 minutes to cause this. Guess what else is simmilar to the WTC? They used lightweight steel trusses.

No, those aren't any.

Yeah, according to your ignorance and delusions.

Go ahead.

I have already provided the imformation. Please feel free to show me how steel would not be effected in a fire.

I'll wait.......

 

[ergo]

You haven't named a single steel-framed structure that has collapsed completely from fire, and I'm guessing you won't find a single example in all the "hundreds" of other steel-framed collapses that you claim have occurred. But you can try.

Can you name one, out of your "hundreds"?

 

[TheRedWorm]

Can you name one CD that was done completely in secret without anyone finding out, ever?

 

[triforcharity]

You haven't named a single steel-framed structure that has collapsed completely from fire, and I'm guessing you won't find a single example in all the "hundreds" of other steel-framed collapses that you claim have occurred. But you can try.

Can you name one, out of your "hundreds"?

Every single one that I have mentioned had the ENTIRE steel framed structure collapse COMPLETLY and ONLY from fire.

What is it with these people who don't understand English? FFS!!

Go read this.

http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153

This

http://web.archive.org/web/20070307071310/www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc&nd=857100058&nh=0&ssect=0

And this

http://utc.mst.edu/documents/Bae_TWS_2008.pdf

This

http://forthardknox.com/2008/01/25/steel-buildings-that-collapsed-due-to-fire-before-9-11/

This

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/886/1/326_Jowsey.pdf

And finally this

http://www.stanford.edu/group/blume/pdffiles/Tech Reports/TR163_Takagi.pdf

And tell me what you hve learned.

BTW, some of those link to peer-reviewed studies of steel framed building collapses. I wonder why engineers might be studying that?

If only there was some way we could figure out why engineers study steel framed building collapses from fire......

 

[ergo]

Every single one that I have mentioned had the ENTIRE steel framed structure collapse COMPLETLY and ONLY from fire.

You apparently don't understand what you're talking about. You TEACH people "fire science"? That's frightening.

What is it with these people who don't understand English? FFS!!

Heh. This is too funny. Bee dunkers, read closely:

Go read this.

http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153

The study that I myself have linked to several times. No total collapses of any steel-framed buildings other than WTC, by anything, let alone fire.

This

http://web.archive.org/web/20070307071310/www.ilo.org/encyclopedia/?doc&nd=857100058&nh=0&ssect=0

Kader Toy Factory, again. No mention of complete collapse.

And this

http://utc.mst.edu/documents/Bae_TWS_2008.pdf

FEA modeling. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of any fire here, let alone building collapses by fire.

This

http://forthardknox.com/2008/01/25/steel-buildings-that-collapsed-due-to-fire-before-9-11/

Just mentions all the examples that we've already debunked. LOL.

This

http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/886/1/326_Jowsey.pdf

Fire modeling. No real building. No real collapse.

And finally this

http://www.stanford.edu/group/blume/pdffiles/Tech Reports/TR163_Takagi.pdf

More modeling. Real buildings are referenced. All the ones, partial, that we already know about, including the only steel-framed buildings in the world to experience complete collapse by fire: WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7. What a SURPRISE!

And tell me what you have learned.

I've learned you don't seem to have a clue what it is you're trying to find; you don't seem to understand your own research; and... YOU STILL HAVEN'T FOUND A SINGLE EXAMPLE outside of WTC of a complete collapse by FIRE of a steel-framed structure !!

 

[ergo]

Trifor, what a joke that was. Everything you think you "gotcha!"-ed here was already debunked in this thread.

 

[excaza]

So you've hopped off of the "I don't understand physics" wagon and hopped onto the "never before in history" wagon?

 

[excaza]

ergo, can you show us an example of a catastrophic solid fuel booster o-ring failure due to cold temperature embrittlement prior to 1986?

 

[ergo]

Hey, excaza, you still haven't found A SINGLE EXAMPLE outside of WTC of a complete collapse by FIRE of a steel-framed structure!

 

[excaza]

Hey, ergo, you still haven't found A SINGLE EXAMPLE of a catastrophic solid fuel booster o-ring failure prior to 1986.

That means it must have been a conspiracy, AMIRITE

 

[Grizzly Bear]

So you've hopped off of the "I don't understand physics" wagon and hopped onto the "never before in history" wagon?

Oh, the best part is this little gem:

The Windsor Tower - not a complete collapse

Construction Type: Reinforced concrete core with waffle slabs supported by internal RC columns and steel beams, with perimeter steel columns which were unprotected above the 17th Floor level at the time of the fire.

Concrete is one of the best insulators for fire you can ever use in a building, that material has excellent compressive strength which works well for gravity loads, but tends to be much heavier than steel.

You'll notice that in just about any building that made with a reinforced concrete framing system, fire is not as big an issue for collapse danger as it is in steel framed construction. Concrete retains it's strength and generally won't do much more than surface spalling, with steel systems you'll often see cases where the beams begin to deflect under their own weight when heated enough. Pity the likes of ergo are too lazy to do this background research, all buildings are the same to these people and I think that's been telling us everything we need to know about them that's been obvious for the last nine years... these CD truthers are charlatans, through and through