Hillary Clinton: "Terror has no religion."

Your insistence came pretty early on.
Can you give some examples of the tone which led you to insist on your position in the face of evidence that it was wrong?
I started on the first page. I found very little 'tone' before you began your insistence.
Perhaps your interpretation of the tone is as mistaken as your interpretation of Clinton's comment.

Whatever you may think of my interpretation of people's tone, AvalonXQ's response unnerved me. Whether or not I misinterpreted people's tone, perception is what drives the response and is therefore what explains it. Perception is also what explains my original post, and I now admit I read too much into Clinton's comments.

You can keep making a big deal out of it, if you like, but I don't see how that's either productive or helpful.
 
Um, no, she clearly meant that Terror has no religion. If you disagree, please tell us which religion Terror is.
So you're saying she clearly meant [word for word quotation of an idiomatic expression]? Yeah, sure, whatever.

As for "which religion Terror is", it is no particular religion but rather the nature of religious belief itself that enables fanatics to become terrorists.

After telling us which religion Terror is, can you show us how ETA fits into your view on this?
Composition fallacy. I didn't say all terrorist acts are explained by religion, nor did I say that terrorists acts where religion is involved are explained solely by religion.

I'm saying a religious mindset affords terrorism far more easily than a non-religious mindset.
 
As for "which religion Terror is", it is no particular religion but rather the nature of religious belief itself that enables fanatics to become terrorists.

Your logic appears to be almost correct if one doesnt go in to details; But i am yet to see a christian

holding a grenade in one hand and bible in another hand proclaiming "Jesus is great".

Perhaps the "christian terrorists" dont want to remember Jesus while they are at it.
 
So you're saying she clearly meant [word for word quotation of an idiomatic expression]? Yeah, sure, whatever.

Funny thing, most people actually mean what they say, you have spent most of the thread trying to paste your interpretation onto it with little evidence. If you want me to expamd on what I think she meant, it'd be that "Terror is not confined one particular religion or group."

As for "which religion Terror is", it is no particular religion but rather the nature of religious belief itself that enables fanatics to become terrorists.

You should have just stopped at the underlined part.

Composition fallacy. I didn't say all terrorist acts are explained by religion, nor did I say that terrorists acts where religion is involved are explained solely by religion.

I'm saying a religious mindset affords terrorism far more easily than a non-religious mindset.

See I'd disagree. Terrorism is a result of politics and an extremist political view. Where regilion comes into terrorism is where that religion and politics is mixed. In the West it is rare to find large groups that use terror to push a politico-religious agenda since we tend to keep our politics and religion separate, however elsewhere, especially in Islam countries where religion and politics are one and the same thing, we tend to see more "religious" terrorist groups.

However, if you look at them, you'll find that they do what they do due to political, not religious reasons. Take Al Qeada for example. They do what they do not because they are trying to convert the US to Islam, but rather their actions are political in nature. They want the US to stop supporting Israel and what they see as corrupt ungodly goverments in their own countries. They also want the US and its allies out of the Arabian Peninsular. These are political goals (though due to the nature of Islam they have a religious undercurrent.)

Here are some statments you might also want to consider:

Robert Pape compiled the first complete database of every documented suicide bombing from 1980-2003. He argues that the news reports about suicide attacks are profoundly misleading — "There is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions". After studying 315 suicide attacks carried out over the last two decades, he concludes that suicide bombers' actions stem from political conflict, not religion.

Michael A. Sheehan stated in 2000, "A number of terrorist groups have portrayed their causes in religious and cultural terms. This is often a transparent tactic designed to conceal political goals, generate popular support and silence opposition."

Terry Nardin wrote, "A basic problem is whether religious terrorism really differs, in its character and causes, from political terrorism... defenders of religious terrorism typically reason by applying commonly acknowledged moral principles... But the use (or misuse) of moral arguments does not in fact distinguish religious from nonreligious terrorists, for the latter also rely upon such arguments to justify their acts... political terrorism can also be symbolic... alienation and dispossession... are important in other kinds of violence as well. In short, one wonders whether the expression 'religious terrorism' is more than a journalistic convenience".

Professor Mark Juergensmeyer wrote, "..religion is not innocent. But it does not ordinarily lead to violence. That happens only with the coalescence of a peculiar set of circumstances - political, social, and ideological - when religion becomes fused with violent expressions of social aspirations, personal pride, and movements for political change." and "Whether or not one uses 'terrorist' to describe violent acts depends on whether one thinks that the acts are warranted. To a large extent the use of the term depends on one's world view: if the world is perceived as peaceful, violent acts appear to be terrorism. If the world is thought to be at war, violent acts may be regarded as legitimate. They may be seen as preemptive strikes, as defensive tactics in an ongoing battles, or as symbols indicating to the world that it is indeed in a state of grave and ultimate conflict"

Following this line of though, Clinton is completely correct, terror has no religion, it is a political tool.
 
See I'd disagree. Terrorism is a result of politics and an extremist political view. Where regilion comes into terrorism is where that religion and politics is mixed. In the West it is rare to find large groups that use terror to push a politico-religious agenda since we tend to keep our politics and religion separate, however elsewhere, especially in Islam countries where religion and politics are one and the same thing, we tend to see more "religious" terrorist groups.
You're making the understandable but ignorant mistake all too common in Western cultures -- seperating religion and politics, and attempting to treat them as distinct and independent entities when discussing Islam and Islamic politics. That works well enough in cultures enjoy even nominal seperation of church and state; but it does not work in Islam. Islam does not differentiate between religion and politics. It is an inherently theocratic religion that mandates specific political and social structures for a proper Islamic society. The two are welded together in Islam the way that they simply aren't in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other major world religion.

In the case of Islam, you cannot say that terrorism is only religiously motivated, or only politically motivated, because the two are inseperable in the Muslim mindset. That is what in particular the Left in particular consistently fails to understand. There is no seperation of church and state in Islamic thought; there is only Islamic society, and infidel society, and only infidels would think of seperating religon from governance. And it is the duty of every Muslim to help bring about an Islamic socity and government (only the methods of doing so are debated, not the duty).
 
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You're making the understandable but ignorant mistake all too common in Western cultures -- seperating religion and politics, and attempting to treat them as distinct and independent entities when discussing Islam and Islamic politics. That works well enough in cultures enjoy even nominal seperation of church and state; but it does not work in Islam. Islam does not differentiate between religion and politics.

I don't see that Phantom was making the mistake you claim: s/he made exactly your point about religion and politics in Islam.
 
You're making the understandable but ignorant mistake all too common in Western cultures -- seperating religion and politics, and attempting to treat them as distinct and independent entities when discussing Islam and Islamic politics.

Did you actually read the part of my post that you quoted?
 
Did you actually read the part of my post that you quoted?
Yes, sorry, it wasn't actually aimed at you, I mis-edited a multi-quote. That was supposed to be a response to someone else, and an expansion on what you said.

That's what I get for trying to keep up with JREF when I'm supposed to be working. :)
 
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You're making the understandable but ignorant mistake all too common in Western cultures -- seperating religion and politics, and attempting to treat them as distinct and independent entities when discussing Islam and Islamic politics. That works well enough in cultures enjoy even nominal seperation of church and state; but it does not work in Islam. Islam does not differentiate between religion and politics. It is an inherently theocratic religion that mandates specific political and social structures for a proper Islamic society. The two are welded together in Islam the way that they simply aren't in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any other major world religion.
if you read the torah religion and politics are pretty welded (heck "torah" even means "law") but youd probably have a hard time finding many jews who want leviticus 18:22 codified as law

of course you can easily find some christians who would like that, but they dont represent the majority, they are just a noisy minority, which in my experience also describes those who want to impose islamic law on the world
 
Yes, sorry, it wasn't actually aimed at you, I mis-edited a multi-quote. That was supposed to be a response to someone else, and an expansion on what you said.

That's what I get for trying to keep up with JREF when I'm supposed to be working. :)

K, it did seem a little odd.
 
if you read the torah religion and politics are pretty welded (heck "torah" even means "law") but youd probably have a hard time finding many jews who want leviticus 18:22 codified as law
It's in the Torah as the structure of the government given only to the Children of Israel at that time; it was not mandated as necessary for the world. It would be odd if it was, since Judaism is explicitly a non-proselytizing religion. Furthermore, the original Hebrew society ordained by G-D was a strictly anarcho-tribal one. "Each man doing what was right in his own eyes, with Judges to decide disputes between them." The Jews were not intended to have a government. It was only after their interminable whinging about how they wanted to be like everyone else that G-D allowed them to have a king, warning them that it would bring them nothing but trouble.

The government they did eventually get was also explicitly a secular one, not a theocratic one; with the king strictly and solely the political head, and the Cohanim priesthood the religious authority with no political power. The kings who did attempt to assert religious authority were soundly condemned, with Prophets sent to rebuke them. So you're wrong about Judaic religion and government.

The Quran, by contrast, mandates not only a specific theocratic government, with the Calif, the "Defender of the Faithful", as both the ultimate religious and political authority the way that Muhammad was; but it mandates the spreading of Islamic belief and authority to the entire world by word and sword.

of course you can easily find some christians who would like that, but they dont represent the majority, they are just a noisy minority, which in my experience also describes those who want to impose islamic law on the world
And those Christians, if they can even be qualified as such, who would impose theocracy are in direct violation of scripture. Christ said "My kingdom is not of this earth" in response to those who believed that He was there to reinstitute the monarchy and free the nation of Israel from Roman rule. The fact that He did not do so, and in fact encouraged acceptance of Roman political authority, was one of the reasons he was so strongly hated by the Sanhedrin. There are multiple instances where Christians are adjured from using force; and there is a strong argument to be made from scripture that Christians should not be directly involved in politics at all.

Musilims who want to impose Islamic law on the world are by far the overwhelming majority. To do otherwise would be to fail in their duty as Muslims. The difference is simply that the majority of them believe in doing so by persuasion and voluntary conversion ("word") rather than by violent force ("sword"); even though the Quran teaches both as equally legitimate -- those who will not convert voluntarily are to be converted under duress or killed. Unfortunately, the violent minority appear to be growing in numbers and power. The earliest schisms in Islam were not doctrinal as the later ones were; but disputes over who was to be the successor to Muhammad and wield ultimate authority over the believers.
 
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my point is a fundamentalist interpretation of the law of moses is incompatible with a secular government, yet thats what israel has and the people seem content with it, it doesnt matter who it applies to (although the noahide laws still apply to everyone)

it just seems that you assume a fundamentalist interpretion of the koran is the only one, while allowing looser interpretation of other religions. somewhat of a double standard, no?
 
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Why as much cause to be concerned? The terrorists I have the most concern about are those that are well organized, that have stockpiles of weapons and explosives and so on, none of which seem to apply to the threat from Islamic terrorists in my country.

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And sadly another terrorist attack formed from the troubles: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10983710

...snip...

Three children were injured in an explosion in Lurgan on Saturday. Dissident republicans are being blamed.

Chief Inspector Sam Cordner said police received a vague warning suggesting a bomb had been left at a primary school when the device was a few streets away.

...snip...

Twelve-year-old Demi Maguire was on her way to buy a loaf of bread with her two-year-old sister Carla and friend Lauren Hendron when the bomb went off.

"I didn't have a clue what it was. I just ran. It was a big shock and I was really nervous and upset," she said.

"Lauren's Irish dancing teacher took us into her house and gave Carla a lolly to calm her down.

"The police came and asked us if we were OK. About 15 minutes later the ambulance was there and checked us out to make sure we were alright."

...snip...
 
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my point is a fundamentalist interpretation of the law of moses is incompatible with a secular government, yet thats what israel has and the people seem content with it, it doesnt matter who it applies to (although the noahide laws still apply to everyone)

it just seems that you assume a fundamentalist interpretion of the koran is the only one, while allowing looser interpretation of other religions. somewhat of a double standard, no?

Some reality check.The state of Israel is governed by secular laws and not the "Law of Moses" while ALL muslim nations are governed by Islamic laws.The only exception turkey is racing to establish islamic law.
 
Some reality check.The state of Israel is governed by secular laws and not the "Law of Moses" while ALL muslim nations are governed by Islamic laws.The only exception turkey is racing to establish islamic law.
That is a pretty bizarre statement. According to Wikepedia, only one country that has a majority of Muslims has a theocracy (Iran). I don't deny that many others have heavy religious influence, but to say that they are all "governed by Islamic laws" is about as incorrect as anything I've ever seen here.
 
Some reality check.The state of Israel is governed by secular laws and not the "Law of Moses" while ALL muslim nations are governed by Islamic laws.The only exception turkey is racing to establish islamic law.

Most Christian nations are governed by some Bibilical laws, such as "Thou shalt not kill" & "Thou shalt not steal".
 
Most Christian nations are governed by some Bibilical laws, such as "Thou shalt not kill" & "Thou shalt not steal".

You dont need a religious scripture to understnad the laws "Thou shalt not MURDER" & "Thou shalt not steal".I don't think any secular or atheist person object to those laws.
 
You dont need a religious scripture to understnad the laws "Thou shalt not MURDER" & "Thou shalt not steal".I don't think any secular or atheist person object to those laws.



^^^This--------The most basic laws were around long before anyone knew what a Christian was. The Code of Hammurabi comes to mind.
 

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