Have Nihilists ever contributed anything worthwhile to society?

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I was arguing with a self-proclaimed nihilist yesterday about the supposed virtues of his philosophy. He kept insisting that as modern society becomes increasingly technocratic and religion loses its grip on people, nihilism will become the driving force of social reconstruction.
I countered by saying that if that happens, it would be the first time nihilists ever did anything for society, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Am I right? Obviously we can't possibly know the beliefs held by everybody who's ever worked on any project in science, medicine, agriculture, architecture, etc. But aside from profit motives, I can't fathom such endeavors being compelled by non-humanist or non-religious ideals.
 
From the Wiki definition:
"the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life."
What does your nihilist propose such a philosophy might mean to a "driving force of social reconstruction."?
Nihilism seems essentially negative; pointing out the "uselessness" of life and the constructed nature of our ethics and morals.
Hard for me to see how this translates to a movement for social reconstruction.
 
I guess I qualify as an existential nihilist, in that I don't regard usefulness, or meaning, or worth, or love or any other values-commodity as inherent in life itself: you have to put those things INTO your life. You can't drink from the cup until you fill it yourself.
 
There is no ultimate goal and all the cosmos will end in a cold death of black holes and brown dwarfs in a few billion years...I'm going to go drink myself to a stupor now.

Serious, life's meaning is whatever the heck you assign it. Nihilism is nothing more than an essential negative view of this meaning.
 
I think this may be a case of confusion between nihilism and existentialism. I wonder if your friend has accidentally placed himself in the wrong group.
 
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
 
At the very least, I think it fair to say that Nihilists have contributed some ideas that became good stories and good movies.

That counts for something, doesn't it?
 
How about this: Nihilism can be used as a razor to remove social requirements that are based on the belief that certain values are intrinsic to life. The result would be laws that are based soley on utility and not arbitrary moral codes.

But I could be confusing nihilism with existentialism.
 
I guess I qualify as an existential nihilist, in that I don't regard usefulness, or meaning, or worth, or love or any other values-commodity as inherent in life itself: you have to put those things INTO your life. You can't drink from the cup until you fill it yourself.

There's a particular strain of nihilists that rejects those things altogether. That's the strain I'm dealing with, it appears.
 
There's a particular strain of nihilists that rejects those things altogether. That's the strain I'm dealing with, it appears.


There's a word for those kind of nihilists - teenage boys. Maybe, if you were particularly immature, you could hold that belief into your early 20s. It's not a philosophy, it's a justification for not cutting your hair.
 
Um my take on nihilism is two fold, first it is a response to the 'wonders of our society', 'the glory of the aristocracy', 'manifest destiny', 'the white man's burden', and all the socio-political crap used to justify a patetntly unfair and biased system of repression.

My personal take:
All human thoughts and words are equally true and equally false. They have no inherent value and meaning.

Some thoughts have a greater validity as models for representing reality.
 
To actually answer the question in the thread topic: The original nihilism as an organized movement arose in Czarist Russia, and it was largely a response to the one-track-minded traditionalism that was used to justify basically why nothing should change. You can't have elections, because that's not the Russian way. You can't free the serfs because that's not the Russian way. Etc.

The main thrust of that nihilism was basically "well, all those traditions are worth nothing anyway." Maybe a bit over the top, but they were a major group pushing for modernizing and westernizing Russia, which, frankly, it needed badly.

I'd say that if the question is "ever contributed something", that's your example right there. Yes, it did.

But frankly, the negative attitude towards nihilism is a bit puzzling, seeing it on this board. The term nihilism arose as a pejorative term to be used for the proponents of rationalism or, basically, skeptics. The first use of the term "nihilism" in philosophy was basically as a derogatory label for rationalism.

Everyone who wanted a well argumented and rational reason to do X, as opposed to blindly joining in the group-think, was labeled a nihilist. Essentially what the "nihilists" (as the term was applied by their opponents) were against were arguments boiling down to what nowadays we'd call the "appeal to tradition fallacy" (i.e., basically "it's good because that's the way things are done" or "it's good because it's been always done this way") or "argumentum ad populum fallacy" ("it's good because everyone agrees it's good", usually a rather unsupported version of "everyone agrees") or "appeal to loyalty fallacy" ("only a traitor would say it's not good"), "argument from authority fallacy" (especially when the authority is Jesus), "appeal to law fallacy" (basically "it's good because it's the law"), etc.

Nowadays you take these things for granted, but back then it was quite the novel and shocking concept that you'd want a better rationale than "well, that's how we do thing in these here parts, boy." For most people, who had been raised and lived with some ideas being _the_ way all good men think, and that nobody who's not crazy or a scoundrel ever questions, it was quite a shock that someone would come and say "yes, but is there some objective reason to do X instead of Y and Z? Because just tradition doesn't count." Hence, the pejorative label for those who did.

Remember, nowadays it's at least accepted that you should try to justify a claim. Even those who end up using a fallacy or a dozen, still are at least comfortable with the idea that some justification at all is expected. That was not the case for most of human history. The age of reason and rationalism had to go against a society where some things just were the way things are done, and are good just because they're done that way.

(The political nihilists in Russia that I mentioned, basically just appropriated the term used pejoratively against them.)

Essentially if Randi had lived in the 18'th or 19'th century, he'd almost certainly be labeled a nihilist.

Did those nihilists contribute anything? How about the very world around you being the way it is because of those who got pejoratively labeled "nihilists". Even basic ideas that you take for granted nowadays -- e.g., that law in itself is no justification (hence even in fallacious arguments, "appeal to law" is now all but defunct), or that tradition is no longer some absolute law everyone must obey (again, even in fallacious arguments, "appeal to tradition" is nowadays more subtle than explicitly mentioning tradition) -- were an uphill battle at one point, and someone got labeled a nihilist for them.

Heck, even the economy that made it possible for you to sit there pondering that, instead of being a serf on the fields, came from someone being nihilistic enough to question the traditional roles and pricing rules. Although the term "nihilist" itself wasn't invented yet, so they got called villains instead.
 
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Nihilists. :talk034: me. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos!
 
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There's a word for those kind of nihilists - teenage boys.

Charnel Expanse, if this is the case with your subject, you may want to read up on Kohlberg's theory of the stages of moral development. Maybe you can figure out how to prod him toward the next stage.


To actually answer the question in the thread topic: The original nihilism as an organized movement arose in Czarist Russia, and it was largely a response to the one-track-minded traditionalism that was used to justify basically why nothing should change....

Hans, would it be accurate to summarize nihilism in the following way? Most people think it refers to "people who just don't believe in ANYTHING", when it really means "people who don't just BELIEVE in anything".
 
Hans, would it be accurate to summarize nihilism in the following way? Most people think it refers to "people who just don't believe in ANYTHING", when it really means "people who don't just BELIEVE in anything".

Pretty much, although at an oversimplified level.

It seems to be understood by most people to be some kind of more pejorative version of saying that someone is a contrarian, and will be against everything just for being against everything sake.

It really means, basically not taking one or more things for granted, and wanting a rational and logical justification. There isn't even really a requirement to "not just believe in anything". You can be a "nihilist" for just one notion taken as sacred and beyond any questioning, or just for a domain, or whatever. E.g., the organized ones in Russia mostly just questioned tradition as some kind of supreme reason and argument, in and by itself.

But you can pick any other domain. E.g., you can be a moral nihilist if you want some rational and logical explanations for rights, crimes and punishments and don't simply accept that some things are moral and immoral by themselves or "because God says so." If you're not a follower of adjectivism or biblical moralism -- e.g., if you believe that rights and laws are a contract among members of society, and can be changed as we figure out better ways to live with each other -- congrats, you may already be a moral nihilist without even knowing it.

Really, it's the same as "skeptic". Some people think "skeptic" is some failure too, and that it means not believing anything whatsoever. Just see some fundie threads for just that.

Unfortunately, while "skeptic" has become understood as something more positive by most people, "nihilist" is still mostly used as a pejorative term -- as, in all fairness, it was from the start -- and still largely misunderstood as basically "contrarian anarchist who rejects everything and anything."

Even more unfortunately, so do most of those who apply the term "nihilist" to themselves for shock value.
 

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