Chavez defends "Carlos the Jackal," Idi Amin

[hgc]

And there are plenty of terrorists who are not broadly condemed. The bombing of the King David hotel was one of the first modern acts of terror after all. And the french resistance fits well into definitions of terrorist as well.

Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Uh, that's a little far-fetched ("one of the first"). Politically motivated bombings have been happening pretty regularly since the invention of ... bombs. There is nothing original or special about the King David Hotel bombing along this continuum.

If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well. His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ...

In it Carlos praises Osama bin Laden and the September 11 attacks and advocates Revolutionary Islam as a "new, post-Communist answer to what he calls US `totalitarianism`", telling readers "from now on terrorism is going to be more or less a daily part of the landscape of your rotting democracies."

He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs.

Guy Fawkes ...

 

[ponderingturtle]

You talking about Chavez, or Carlos? Him being fat kid from upper middle class does not disqualify him as a killer.

Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press.

Yawohl, Gauleiter Ponderenschildkröte .

Hey, they fit many modern definitions of terrorists. I have seen clear definitions from the DOD of terrorist that fit the french resistance. When you define terrorist as any non state power using unconventional means you get lots of people defined as terrorist who you agree with.

I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Carlos. Sure he is a killer, but he is not the super terrorist he is portrayed to be in pop culture. He got lucky and got some good press.

He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio.

I am not convinced that there is a hard and fixed definition that you can use to differentiate them and the insurgents in Iraq that targeted the US military. They were commonly branded as terrorists.

By whom?

 

[ponderingturtle]

If we are to believe his Wiki bio article, he was weaned on class struggle and Marxist/Leninist demagoguery. Obviously, his mother and father wanted to teach their children well. His book (possible ghost written) is doubtless worth a read for the standard America bashers ...

??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events. The first was bombing of a hotel by jewish terrorists to get the british to leave palestine.

And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists?

He's probably right about that last bit, but then, that's been true, as was previously pointed out, since people got on to the idea of using bombs.

Guy Fawkes ...

It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs.

 

[ponderingturtle]

He got support and "a blind eye turned" from some Eastern bloc governments, and some Arab governments. That's a bit more than luck and good press. As to super terrorist, that's part of what the press does: create myths and legends. See sports journalism for the best examples of that, or looking at it in a different light. Chavez' movie production studio.

Sure. It also served the countries he hit. It masks their mistakes my saying not that they made mistakes but that he is some super competent individual. He isn't he got lucky.

I don't respect him at all, but his immage and his fact are vastly different.

By whom?

Media and some of the DOD defintions of terrorist. Not sure if they are sticking by the definition now of any non state actors who use non conventional techniques.

There was little effort to differentiate between say people using roadside bombs to attack military convoys, a perfectly legitimate military goal, and those who bombed mosques.

 

[Darth Rotor]

??? The king david bombing and Carlos are two different events.

No kidding. That is why I ignored your first ref to it.

And sure Carlos might have had marxist parents, but what is so suprising about middle class marxists?

Nothing.

It was more about how terrorists use the media, so bombing as a media event not a bombing to primarily kill the people it bombs.

No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see.

Dr

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, you do both, it's not an either or. It's a more effective media event when the blood flows. More dire. More grisly. More FEAR and TERROR inspiring. Terrorism, ya see.

Dr

Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial.

 

[theprestige]

but humorous.

We should be so lucky.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sure, but how much are the perpetrators of that bombing being considered as brutal murderous terrorists, and how much are they thought of as heroes? They certainly were never had to face trial.

Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Carlos is a big hero in France, is he not?

That was not dirrected at Carlos as I suspect you knew.

 

[Travis]

Not unlike beauty, the definition of a terrorist is in the eye/politics of the beholder.

Is there any ideology that you support that you would consider as so important that deliberately killing civilians is a reasonable means to achieve it? I can't think of any that I would.

I'm sure there are many in the world that might consider President Bush to be a terrorist, and that our actions in Iraq to be a mass example of genocidal terrorism.

...and they would be wrong. Since Bush never explicitly asked for civilians to be killed and US policy never advocated it either.

 

[Praktik]

Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it:

There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc.

So in that this knowledge was there, you could say that in some respects the US war policy in Iraq was logically going to kill civilians, ergo, Bush deliberately started something he knew would kill civilians.

And then he justified this cost as worth it.

While I may not agree with Xboxwarrior on much of what he says I can definitely say I don't think the cost was worth it, and there is some distance between the American people and the price paid by Iraqis for what was perceived as the American self-interest.

But that's another thread. This still is the kernel of truth under the "Bush = terrorist" claims, however jingoistic these appeals may be.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Right, but here's how someone like XboxWarrior would see it:

There was foreknowledge that civilians would be killed in bombing raids, through misidentification, bad intelligence, battlefield errors like getting trajectories wrong - etc.

Or willful intent like firebombing tokyo.

No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII.

 

[Skeptic]

No one acted in an acceptable manner by modern standards in WWII.

As far as I am concerned, the Red Army acted in a perfectly acceptable manner when it released my family members from Hitler's death camps.

 

[Eddie Dane]

As far as I am concerned, the Red Army acted in a perfectly acceptable manner when it released my family members from Hitler's death camps.

...and then arrested the just freed Russian POW's for treason and put them on a train to Siberia for some extra concentration camp fun.

Skeptic, they did good things. But no WWII party lives up to today's ethical standards.

 

[Skeptic]

I'm not saying they didn't do that. I'm just annoyed at the moral equivalency implied.

 

[Praktik]

...and then arrested the just freed Russian POW's for treason and put them on a train to Siberia for some extra concentration camp fun.

Skeptic, they did good things. But no WWII party lives up to today's ethical standards.

Indeed, one of the most jarring examples would be the allies leaving homosexuals in prison after the defeat of germany: "Well the Nazis were wrong about a lot of things, but at least they were right on that."

Just found out about that a few months ago and was shocked to hear that as others were given their freedom, homosexuals were left to serve out the remainder of their "sentences" handed down under Nazi persecution.

 

[MikeMangum]

Um, Israelis honor their terrorists, so why can't Chavez honor his heros?

After a few months on this forums, I've yet to see a single post from you that didn't reference Israel, Zionists, or Jews regardless of the topic of the thread.

You might want to consider the implications.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You blow up a few cafe's and throw a couple of hand grenades in to a metro or two and BOOM, everybody think you're a bad guy.

Thank god we have enlightened world leaders like Chavez to set the record straight.

Well when he's doing nothing about the crime rates in his country he's definitely showing us all what "model citizenship" is all about.