Who Else Is Feeling The Oil Pinch?

BPSCG

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All the talk about oil prices you see here are about how horrible they are in the U.S., where we pay about $4.00 a gallon (= about 0.64 euros/liter). Yes, I know, that's ridiculously cheap compared to what it costs in Europe.

And even so, we're reading all kinds of newspaper stories about how people in the U.S. are cutting back on their driving and all kinds of other things to be able to afford gas. Don't know how much of that is proof by way of anecdote, but I'm wondering what the effect of the recent oil prices has been in Europe, where the prices for gasoline have always been much higher. Are people getting rid of their (already small) cars, driving less, canceling vacations, buying less expensive food, etc.?

What changes to your daily lives have you Europeans (and people living in other places where gas is expensive) here been making, if any?
 
I don't think many people are doing anything drastic like rushing to sell their cars just yet. Of course it's hard to generalise. But in Britain at least everything seems to be getting more and more expensive, and I think people are being a bit more careful about what they spend while they wait to see what happens.
 
It is kind of you to make a thread just for our friends across the lake, considering your outburst on the last gas thread :D

Aren't gas prices in Europe higher due to higher taxes?
 
ServiceSoon said:
It is kind of you to make a thread just for our friends across the lake, considering your outburst on the last gas thread :D
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Don't remember what that alleged outburst was, but there are a lot of things I don't remember very well these days. What was that?

Aren't gas prices in Europe higher due to higher taxes?
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That's my understanding, but I have to assume that the increasing price per barrel is affecting everyone, and that the Europeans are paying a lot more than the previously very high prices they had been used to.
 
BP has reported that European energy consumption declined a little in 2007. "EU energy consumption declined by 2.2%, with Germany registering the world’s largest decline in energy consumption."

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9023753&contentId=7044109

According to their PDF in the sidebar, Germany's oil consumption fell 9% in 2007. Switzerland's consumption dropped by 9.9%. Austria, Italy, and Britain also dropped by a few percentage points each.

The report also looks at natural gas, coal, nuclear, and hydroelectric, and the charts cite consumption figures back through 1997.

I'd be interested to see if there is any correlation between recession and declines in fossil fuel consumption. I suspect that there would be, historically, but I'd also suspect that in parts of Europe (notably Denmark) that connection might be weakening.
 
Yes the price is having an impact. It is now cheaper to take the train to work (some doing). To be honest the 15 minute walk at the Glasgow end is doing me good so I am in two minds about it all. I do think the trains are damned expensive though which leads me to conclude that the Government doesn't care all that much about sustainable transport.
 
Nogbad said:
I do think the trains are damned expensive though which leads me to conclude that the Government doesn't care all that much about sustainable transport.
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Do you think the government is making a big profit on the trains (in which case they can charge less), or do you think they should tax other people (who don't ride the train) more so you can ride the train for less?
 
WildCat said:
Do you think the government is making a big profit on the trains (in which case they can charge less), or do you think they should tax other people (who don't ride the train) more so you can ride the train for less?
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Or perhaps you could consider the bigger picture, and look at what is spent on roads compared with rail, and which has less effect on the environment in the long run. Should they tax people who use the train (and therefore don't use the roads) less?
 
WildCat said:
Do you think the government is making a big profit on the trains (in which case they can charge less), or do you think they should tax other people (who don't ride the train) more so you can ride the train for less?
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My understanding is that the trains are doing OK - but yes I think that if a Government really believed we are all doomed if we don't stop using our cars then it would structure taxes and expenditure on road vs rail rather more towards encouraging rail use than is currently the case.

My monthly season rail ticket is a shade over $320. My office is about 32 miles from my house.
 
WildCat said:
Do you think the government is making a big profit on the trains (in which case they can charge less)
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All of the trains in the UK are now in private hands, so they charge as much as the market will stand (which is quite a lot, as it turns out). The government doesn't even charge VAT on public transport.
 
Most of it is tax indeed, so we don't feel the increase as much.

simple math with made up numbers

US from $2 to $4.. 100% increase
Europe from $8 to $10.. 25% increase.. But as it is counted in $$$ and the $ is low, it is more like from $10 to $11.5 (in euros) so even less... in %

where I live most people with higher education have jobs with cars they get from their work. The car is part of your pay. And you get extra money for all work related travel costs... So the price increase doesn't hurt the workers, (although it hurts the boss)
Note you are supposed to keep track of all miles you travel for private purposes, and you have to pay extra taxes for those (because the car benefit is part of your income) The government does check this and gives heavy fines if you cheat

Young people, senior people, people with lower wage jobs don't get these company cars.. usually they drive smaller second hand cars and live closer to work so they can take city transport or even a bike to work. In Europe public transport usually is better (although we bitch a lot about it and I have been in excellent busses and trams in San Diego)
In the country most families have 2 cars, one large for long distance trips and one very small (Fiat, Toyota, Peugeot, VW) for local use. These (small diesel) cars do 20 km on a liter that is about 47 miles to the US Gallon , although in practical use it is more 15 km/l or about 35 miles / Gallon

All in all, we are not feeling it too much....... yet....... I can still make 100 mile trips just for fun, to enjoy my new car.... It will change next year when the oil goes to >$200 :) Then even me will stop driving fast for fun ...
 
I'm really surprised at the question you posed in the OP. Since the EU is already used to high fuel costs, wouldn't a more interesting question be how us 'merikans are reacting to the shock of energy prices. But maybe I don't understand the thrust of your OP.
 
Well despite headlines of gas going up 40% and the like in the UK my gas price hasn't gone up since January and with it being summer I've not noticed any difference.
 
SezMe said:
I'm really surprised at the question you posed in the OP. Since the EU is already used to high fuel costs, wouldn't a more interesting question be how us 'merikans are reacting to the shock of energy prices.
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I already see and hear plenty of "proof by anecdote" accounts of how everyone in the U.S. is curled up in a fetal position whimpering about gas prices and using their vehicles only for the direst of emergencies involving loss of two or more limbs.

But maybe I don't understand the thrust of your OP.
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Just trying to find out if the reaction is similar across the ocean. After all, Europeans were paying what we now pay five years ago. If we're screaming bloody murder, they must be apoplectic.

Okay, maybe not the Brits - chin up, stiff upper British lip, "London can take it!" and all that. But doesn't a $2/gallon increase hurt more when you're already paying high prices? Isn't there a "last straw" point, where a country collectively says, "We're going to build every nuclear plant we can afford and do everything we possibly can to reduce the amount of oil we use"?

Might be useful information for us 'Mericans to know. At what point does the pain become so great that we finally decide the hell with emerging technologies that we've been promised for the last fifty years - fusion power, solar power, hydrogen power - and embark on a crash program to supply 100% of our new electrical needs by nuclear and wind?
 
BPSCG said:
But doesn't a $2/gallon increase hurt more when you're already paying high prices? Isn't there a "last straw" point, where a country collectively says, "We're going to build every nuclear plant we can afford and do everything we possibly can to reduce the amount of oil we use"?
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I doubt such a "last straw" point exists. The real problem is not the height of prices, but how fast they rise. A gradual rise allows society time to adapt. For example, by people moving closer to work, buying more fuel efficient vehicles and expanding energy efficient forms of transport.

If you are used to paying $ 8 instead of $ 2 per liter, then you will already have adapted to become more efficient. So since you use fewer liters a $ 2 per liter increase hurts less.
 
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To respond to the OP, one concrete example I can cite is the Knysna Oyster festival. Knysna is a small seaside town about 400km from Cape Town and usually draws large crowds over the 3 day festival (lots of cheap oysters and fun stuff to do). This year, attendance was dramatically down from previous years (based on my own experience).

No doubt this is due, at least in part, to the crazy price of petrol (or gas, as you guys like to call it).

For comparison, we pay R10.50 per liter, which google tells me works out to $5.30 per gallon
 
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I don't think the price increase is experienced as that dramatic over here (Belgium). It's been increasing steadily for the last few years and it's just going a quicker now. Of course people are complaining (or stealing oil from others!), but it's not entirely new.

Because taxes caused the price to be quite high already for many years, people are prepared. Classical example: efficient cars? Also government is pushing energy efficiency for some years. Energy suppliers are required by law to spend some of their budget to promote efficiency. They send you some glossy brochure each few months, with some "general" articles like fashion :-(, but also full of (always the same) tips like buying a new fridge, isolating the attic, efficient heating and using fluorescent lightbulbs. You also get large tax refunds and other monetary rewards for some of these measures, like replacing all your windows with super-isolated ones.

We're also seeing the "carless Sundays" back, like we used to have in the 70's with the oil crisis, just not at the same scale. Back then the whole country was not allowed to drive, now it's just in some city centers at Sunday, when most people don't drive anyway. Of course that's mostly about advertisement.

At work we just moved to a new building, right behind the railway station. They now pay your subscription, because they had to reserve less parking space, which is a direct saving for the company, but they also get partly refunded by the government.

All small things, but I guess it adds up...
 
lauwersw said:
They send you some glossy brochure each few months, with some "general" articles like fashion :-(, but also full of (always the same) tips like buying a new fridge, isolating the attic...
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What, do you put barbed wire and and armed guards on your attic and impose trade sanctions on it? :biggrin:
 
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