insincere does not equate to being a troll so I don't quite understand your statement in that context. Maybe if you put it in a song
Have you ever had a "supernatural" experience? How did you rationalize it?
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JoeTheJuggler
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I think accusing someone of being a troll does imply that you question the sincerity of their motives.
My questioning his sincerity at times does not equate with me calling him a troll. If I did it would be something like YOUR A TROLL but I didn't say that did I?
JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
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<derail>
I think you're (not "your") getting caught in cross currents of discussion, Enigma. My good friend Locknar said he thinks Cresur is a troll back in post number 67 of this thread.
He even said it was just an opinion meaning, I think, that he didn't have much to support it with. Cresur's response was legit: If you're making a claim, where's your evidence?
Anyway, I consider Locknar a friend, and I agree with most things he says. In this case, I think the accusation was at least premature.
For me a troll is either someone who is insincere (playing a role--remember SylviaRox, or a sock puppet of another member) and/or someone who just posts inflammatory comments but isn't interested in engaging in discussion, as AmyWilson or T'aiChi, for examples (I include T'aiChi primarily because of his extensive "ignore" list and his silly "interesting" posts).
</derail>
ETA: I suppose I don't think the "I'm a skeptic but please explain this supernatural phenomenon" posts are exactly trollish. I think they're people who are confused or are using odd rhetorical methods.
I think you're (not "your") getting caught in cross currents of discussion, Enigma. My good friend Locknar said he thinks Cresur is a troll back in post number 67 of this thread.
He even said it was just an opinion meaning, I think, that he didn't have much to support it with. Cresur's response was legit: If you're making a claim, where's your evidence?
Anyway, I consider Locknar a friend, and I agree with most things he says. In this case, I think the accusation was at least premature.
For me a troll is either someone who is insincere (playing a role--remember SylviaRox, or a sock puppet of another member) and/or someone who just posts inflammatory comments but isn't interested in engaging in discussion, as AmyWilson or T'aiChi, for examples (I include T'aiChi primarily because of his extensive "ignore" list and his silly "interesting" posts).
</derail>
ETA: I suppose I don't think the "I'm a skeptic but please explain this supernatural phenomenon" posts are exactly trollish. I think they're people who are confused or are using odd rhetorical methods.
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No I'm not. I said at times I question his sincerity and you equated insincerity with being a troll. The reason I said that was clearly written in my posts. Do you disagree?
Locknar
Sum of all evils tm
So....getting back on topic; what do you (Cresur) think this was? A couple of explanations have been offered by folks, which you seem to discount as unlikely (my paraphrasing).
Do you really believe that some type of supernatural/paranormal “force” was, or could be, responsible? For that matter, what (if any) types of supernatural/paranormal things are you likely to believe in/accept on face value?
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JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
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<derail>
My post number 80 should've included a quote from Locknar's post number 67--that's really what I was responding to. (In my mind for someone to be "trolling the board" they would need to be insincere--not sincerely interested in engaging in an actual, meaningful discussion--one way or another.)
</derail>
Back to the "shades of grey" issue: I do think people who are believers tend to look for fanciful and paranormal explanations, and people who are not, don't. Ever been to a psychic fair or other new age type of event? You'll get all sorts of stuff, where maybe people into Reiki will also accept homeopathy, astral projection, communicating with the dead, astrology and so on. The method of thinking is where the problem lies, not in the subject matter. Once you take something without evidence that runs in contradiction to a great body of evidence-supported knowledge, there's no good reason to accept some things and reject others.
The main exception to my black-and-white way of seeing it (or as I prefer, the "vaccination" afforded by critical thinking which provides immunity) is with more or less conventional religions. There you have people who might have perfectly good, rational thinking skills in all other matters, and then accept a supernatural explanation in regards to matters of faith. I think they're using Gould's NOMA idea. IMHO, that idea is nonsense simply because 100% of what is now the realm of science was once in the realm of religion. If someone has lied to me repeatedly in the past, it's difficult for me to take their word for something else now. As for the big questions that religion purports to answer (as a matter of faith, and wholly without evidence), I have no problem saying those are questions whose answers are simply unknown.
<rant>Why is it that people who supposedly embrace the mystical are the same ones who are claiming to have knowledge and answers to questions we really don't know the answers to? In other words, they're the ones claiming knowledge we don't really have, where scientific thinkers are the ones excited by what we don't know.</rant>
Sorry, my bad.
My post number 80 should've included a quote from Locknar's post number 67--that's really what I was responding to. (In my mind for someone to be "trolling the board" they would need to be insincere--not sincerely interested in engaging in an actual, meaningful discussion--one way or another.)
</derail>
Back to the "shades of grey" issue: I do think people who are believers tend to look for fanciful and paranormal explanations, and people who are not, don't. Ever been to a psychic fair or other new age type of event? You'll get all sorts of stuff, where maybe people into Reiki will also accept homeopathy, astral projection, communicating with the dead, astrology and so on. The method of thinking is where the problem lies, not in the subject matter. Once you take something without evidence that runs in contradiction to a great body of evidence-supported knowledge, there's no good reason to accept some things and reject others.
The main exception to my black-and-white way of seeing it (or as I prefer, the "vaccination" afforded by critical thinking which provides immunity) is with more or less conventional religions. There you have people who might have perfectly good, rational thinking skills in all other matters, and then accept a supernatural explanation in regards to matters of faith. I think they're using Gould's NOMA idea. IMHO, that idea is nonsense simply because 100% of what is now the realm of science was once in the realm of religion. If someone has lied to me repeatedly in the past, it's difficult for me to take their word for something else now. As for the big questions that religion purports to answer (as a matter of faith, and wholly without evidence), I have no problem saying those are questions whose answers are simply unknown.
<rant>Why is it that people who supposedly embrace the mystical are the same ones who are claiming to have knowledge and answers to questions we really don't know the answers to? In other words, they're the ones claiming knowledge we don't really have, where scientific thinkers are the ones excited by what we don't know.</rant>
IXP
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Cresur, with respect to the coke bottle incident: Several people on this thread have implied or conjectured that one of your friends was playing a trick on you. You have not commented on this explanation. I think any critical thinker would come up with this as the first, most likely explanation. Can you answer these questions, please?
Did you not think of this as a possibility?
If you did, why did you reject it and latch onto much less likely explanations?
IXP
Did you not think of this as a possibility?
If you did, why did you reject it and latch onto much less likely explanations?
IXP
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First, my discounting of possibilities was being interpreted as if I was being difficult or worse:
Second, I only posted it as an anecdote to illustrate one reason why I think most people immediately appeal to the supernatural while I don't: because they're terrified of it first. None of the weird things I've experienced impressed me to the point of fright, or even fear. They only got me confused, curious and wondering. Since my knowledge wasn't enough to satisfyingly explain them to myself, I was content with "I don't know". I came here looking for resources to fill this one gap: knowledge. Not to look for explanations of what happened to the bottle, or the man in the pantry, or the self-refilling, self-rewrapping butter stick (which as truly the most bizarre thing I've ever experienced).
Now, the reason I don't see the likelihood of the bottle incident being one of my friends playing a trick on me is because they never even got near of the bottle. Me and my wife had finished the bottle over lunch the last day or so, it was my responsibility to take it to the garbage and, well. Anyway, that night me and my friends had just gotten home with a brand new bottle of coke, plastic cups, and pizza, and sat on the floor to eat and talk (this is a custom of ours that goes back for more than a decade now; since the days when we used to play board games on the carpet, instead of on the table).
The only way they could have set that up without me knowing would be breaking into my place while I was sleeping or out. Sure, you can always argue that I just don't remember, that some of us could've gone to the bathroom or something, and on their way they set it up, or if it was me who left the room, they just took the opportunity. But that's not how I remember it happening, we will never really know, and that's the reason why I decided to just shrug it off and file it on the "weird" folder, along with other stuff. I only mentioned it in the first place to illustrate my other points.
I see now that I've likely not made myself very clear in the first post, probably because I tried to cram a lot on it, and also my insufficient grasp of the language.
JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
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The only way that you can imagine. I guarantee you there are magicians that routinely pull off illusions that defy the ability of most of us to explain how it's done.
Not knowing something (ignorance) is not support of any explanation.
When a skeptic doesn't know something, there is no leap to explanations that defy Occam's Razor. (That is, an explanation that is not parsimonious in that it disagrees with bodies of knowledge for which there are enormous quantities of good, solid evidence. All hypotheses appealing to the paranormal or supernatural fit into this category.)
It's much more reasonable to assume something mundane happened that you don't understand.
Offhand, I can think of several possible reasons a coke bottle could suddenly fall over. The way you told the story in the OP sounds like this is something that happened some time ago. You do know that memory is quite plastic, and things might not have occurred exactly the way you remember them?
Also, that your friends are now reluctant to come over and that Friday the 13th was an occasion where you and your friends would "naturally" tell ghost stories (which do tend to get you in a hyped-up and credulous mood) makes me a little suspicious of your claim not to be someone with an imaginative bent, prone to looking for paranormal explanations. A lot of this sort of stuff ("woo") happens or is heightened by a context of communal reinforcement.
Locknar
Sum of all evils tm
I have a hard time believing your story here.....
You have some edgy friends? Do your friends normally just jump to outlandish "it must be woo woo" conclusions at the drop of a hat to anything unexpected? I mean...I could see it if Jason, hockey mask and all, came crashing into the room flailing about with a knife or something....but such a strong reaction simply because a soda bottle fell?
Perhaps a friend was just playing a joke? But no...you've eliminated that too:
NOTE: BOLD added by Locknar
Really? There was no "what was that", no sense of bewilderment? Everyone sitting around, enjoying pizza to "terrified, pale, shaking" just like that?Cresur said:
You have some edgy friends? Do your friends normally just jump to outlandish "it must be woo woo" conclusions at the drop of a hat to anything unexpected? I mean...I could see it if Jason, hockey mask and all, came crashing into the room flailing about with a knife or something....but such a strong reaction simply because a soda bottle fell?
Conveniently you've eliminated most possible explanations right off the bat. Short of some type of paranormal event, there is really no other explanation possible given the above is there?Cresur said:
Perhaps a friend was just playing a joke? But no...you've eliminated that too:
All that said, assuming your story is real (vs say a camp fire story)...what do you think might have caused this to happen?Cresur said:
NOTE: BOLD added by Locknar
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A few of my fun experiences:
Monster in the basement: I heard a noise on the other side of the cellar door (our cellar was a very spooky environment: dirt floor, lots of spiders, a dark coal bin/room, rickety shelves, creaky steps, etc.) and I said “hello?” and there was a knocking at the door. I asked “who’s there?” … louder knocking “thump (pause) thump (pause) thump” I went running out the front door! What was it? My big brother! (grrrrrrr) – oh, yeah, I was probably 9 years old at the time. At least he admitted it, if not I would still be wondering to this day what that “thing” in the cellar was!! Or, at least, which of my 4 brothers it was. ;-)
Ouija board experiences: too numerous to mention, but many in which the planchette was zipping along, spelling out wonderful tales. And even if it was just moving slowly, it was often logical and interesting in its “messages”. What do I attribute this to? The ideomotor effect, coupled with creative teenagers who desire to believe in spirits!
A dark shadow experience: One night in my college dorm room, I awoke and perceived a shadow shaped like a person standing just beyond the foot of my bed. I remember feeling perturbed by someone intruding so on my sleep, but then opened my eyes again and it was gone. I was so convinced someone had been there, that I jumped out of bed and looked under it and around the room. No one was there. What do I think this was? A trick of perception (illusion) that the waking mind is susceptible to. It probably has a name, but I don’t recall.
Séance event: There were about 8 of us, in the basement rec-room of an apartment building, sitting on the floor with our eyes closed, asking for a sign that a spirit was with us – the pipes above made some noises, but we weren’t so gullible (ha!), so we asked for a better sign. I heard the person to my right move, and I opened my eyes to see her hand reaching for the balls in the pool table holding slot (you know, the area the balls return to after going into a pocket?), and so I tapped her knee and when she looked at me I shook my head “no”. As I did this, one of the balls came out of the holding spot, and bounced up onto a chair. I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time. What happened? I don’t know exactly, but I believe that due to the darkness, I wasn’t able to tell that her hand was actually touching the ball when I tapped her knee, and she jerked her hand as she turned to me, causing the ball to “jump” out from where it was. Needless to say (?) we all went running from the room, screaming in delightful fright.
Someone kicking my bed?: When I would sleep at my cousin’s house as a child, I would sometimes feel the bed jolt as though someone had kicked it. I thought it was my cousin, but she assured me she didn’t do it. If you knew her, you’d understand why I totally believed her. So then we would both jump out of bed and run to her mother who would make us go back to bed. What do I think this was? Either the trundle bed springs were readjusting, or I was having little muscle spasms that would make it feel like the bed had been kicked, or my cousin actually did move in her bed, which was touching my bed, thereby inadvertently jostling my bed. Who knows. I miss those days though.
9-11 prediction?: About 2 weeks before 9-11-01, I had a dream that I was in a mall or similar public building, and the ceiling of the area I was in was made of glass. I looked up to see a passenger jet flying very low, and thought “it’s going to hit this building!” and then it barely cleared the roof above me, but the plane’s belly hit the roof just beyond me, which was no longer glass, but more of a concrete nature. I don’t recall what happened next. Do I think this was a prediction of the 9-11 attack? No. I had just booked a flight for November a few days before this, I hate to fly and was apprehensive about it, I had just started teaching my first college level class (as a grad student) and was nervous I would “crash and burn”, and I have had more than one dream about planes crashing near me over the years. Coincidence of timing. And when the terrorist attack happened, my memory of the dream flooded back to me – otherwise it probably would have been forgotten forever.
My most recent experience (and I’m in my 40’s these days): Twice in 2006, while alone in my new (old) house, I was awoken by the sound of knocking at the front door. Both times I trudged down the stairs, so sure I was that the noise was real, only to find that there was no one there. Both times I attributed it to another waking illusion, and went back to sleep without a care. I did not wonder if it was a ghost. I didn’t fear for myself. BTW, this house could easily be seen as a little spooky. Upon first looking at it, I discovered a preserved but petrified (hard as a rock) crow in a storage area (poor thing!!), and in 2007 I spent an hour chasing a bat that made its presence known by flying beautiful figure 8’s in my living room. I finally removed the bat humanely with the help of my fluffy purple robe, and now either it or its relative lives in the carport. Oh, and we shored up some possible entryways it may have used.
You (Cresur) asked.
Monster in the basement: I heard a noise on the other side of the cellar door (our cellar was a very spooky environment: dirt floor, lots of spiders, a dark coal bin/room, rickety shelves, creaky steps, etc.) and I said “hello?” and there was a knocking at the door. I asked “who’s there?” … louder knocking “thump (pause) thump (pause) thump” I went running out the front door! What was it? My big brother! (grrrrrrr) – oh, yeah, I was probably 9 years old at the time. At least he admitted it, if not I would still be wondering to this day what that “thing” in the cellar was!! Or, at least, which of my 4 brothers it was. ;-)
Ouija board experiences: too numerous to mention, but many in which the planchette was zipping along, spelling out wonderful tales. And even if it was just moving slowly, it was often logical and interesting in its “messages”. What do I attribute this to? The ideomotor effect, coupled with creative teenagers who desire to believe in spirits!
A dark shadow experience: One night in my college dorm room, I awoke and perceived a shadow shaped like a person standing just beyond the foot of my bed. I remember feeling perturbed by someone intruding so on my sleep, but then opened my eyes again and it was gone. I was so convinced someone had been there, that I jumped out of bed and looked under it and around the room. No one was there. What do I think this was? A trick of perception (illusion) that the waking mind is susceptible to. It probably has a name, but I don’t recall.
Séance event: There were about 8 of us, in the basement rec-room of an apartment building, sitting on the floor with our eyes closed, asking for a sign that a spirit was with us – the pipes above made some noises, but we weren’t so gullible (ha!), so we asked for a better sign. I heard the person to my right move, and I opened my eyes to see her hand reaching for the balls in the pool table holding slot (you know, the area the balls return to after going into a pocket?), and so I tapped her knee and when she looked at me I shook my head “no”. As I did this, one of the balls came out of the holding spot, and bounced up onto a chair. I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time. What happened? I don’t know exactly, but I believe that due to the darkness, I wasn’t able to tell that her hand was actually touching the ball when I tapped her knee, and she jerked her hand as she turned to me, causing the ball to “jump” out from where it was. Needless to say (?) we all went running from the room, screaming in delightful fright.
Someone kicking my bed?: When I would sleep at my cousin’s house as a child, I would sometimes feel the bed jolt as though someone had kicked it. I thought it was my cousin, but she assured me she didn’t do it. If you knew her, you’d understand why I totally believed her. So then we would both jump out of bed and run to her mother who would make us go back to bed. What do I think this was? Either the trundle bed springs were readjusting, or I was having little muscle spasms that would make it feel like the bed had been kicked, or my cousin actually did move in her bed, which was touching my bed, thereby inadvertently jostling my bed. Who knows. I miss those days though.
9-11 prediction?: About 2 weeks before 9-11-01, I had a dream that I was in a mall or similar public building, and the ceiling of the area I was in was made of glass. I looked up to see a passenger jet flying very low, and thought “it’s going to hit this building!” and then it barely cleared the roof above me, but the plane’s belly hit the roof just beyond me, which was no longer glass, but more of a concrete nature. I don’t recall what happened next. Do I think this was a prediction of the 9-11 attack? No. I had just booked a flight for November a few days before this, I hate to fly and was apprehensive about it, I had just started teaching my first college level class (as a grad student) and was nervous I would “crash and burn”, and I have had more than one dream about planes crashing near me over the years. Coincidence of timing. And when the terrorist attack happened, my memory of the dream flooded back to me – otherwise it probably would have been forgotten forever.
My most recent experience (and I’m in my 40’s these days): Twice in 2006, while alone in my new (old) house, I was awoken by the sound of knocking at the front door. Both times I trudged down the stairs, so sure I was that the noise was real, only to find that there was no one there. Both times I attributed it to another waking illusion, and went back to sleep without a care. I did not wonder if it was a ghost. I didn’t fear for myself. BTW, this house could easily be seen as a little spooky. Upon first looking at it, I discovered a preserved but petrified (hard as a rock) crow in a storage area (poor thing!!), and in 2007 I spent an hour chasing a bat that made its presence known by flying beautiful figure 8’s in my living room. I finally removed the bat humanely with the help of my fluffy purple robe, and now either it or its relative lives in the carport. Oh, and we shored up some possible entryways it may have used.
You (Cresur) asked.
Gravy
Downsitting Citizen
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Why should we "wonder" or "argue" about complicated trickery when we have no reason to believe that you're not making this all up? That's my default approach to someone whose stories ring totally false to me.
Why do most of you consciously insist on missing the point?
Most of the messages were just jumps at every tangent you could possibly find, insisting on trying to squeeze to the last drop of it. Like on another thread, where a poster told his experience with what, according to his wife, could be ghosts, and people kept insisting on how he had marital problems for not being able to discuss the matter with her. Like it had anything to do with anything that was really the matter.
And from his first post, Locknar seems bent on proving that I have a covert belief in the supernatural and/or am a troll of some sort.
I discounted every explanation regarding the bottle because I had already given much thought to each one that was presented but there was always something that didn't quite fit, and all of you failed to present them in a way that filled all the gaps to my satisfaction.
For example, if me and my friends imagined the whole thing, where did the hallucination start, and where did it end? Because, apart from the initial shock, I don't recall feeling any different than before or after. Did we imagine the entire night? Did we only imagine the bottle flying when it reality it just tipped over?
Also, none of my friends has ever manifested any interest in magic. If anything, I am the enthusiast magician on the bunch, and I didn't find any invisible thread or any magic supply on the scene, right after the incident.
Earlier on this thread the consensus seemed to be that we should be content in not knowing, which was the place I already was, to begin with. Now it seems I should be content at trusting every word you say.
As for what I think was the case with the bottle, as I said on my first post, I don't know nor do I have any way, or intention, of knowing at this point. The only thing that can be examined right now is my memory, and as we all know that is not reliable. The only way I could take a better look into it was if it'd happen again, but it hasn't, and I doubt it ever will. So it's a moot point.
From where you guys stand, any of the following would suffice:
- they imagined the whole thing;
- his friends tricked him;
- his memory is embellishing the event;
- he is a troll.
To me, all of those are insufficient; at least in the way they were presented. So, for the last time, I'm not after explanations for the incidents I mentioned.
Thanks kittynh, tsg, JoeTheJuggler, for pointing out a few explicit principles instead of just rhetorics like 'don't be a woo-woo, possess critical thinking'.
Thanks Locknar, for referring me to the Book Review thread/forum.
Thanks Normal Dude, Quinn, Piggy and Lillith, for sharing experiences and telling how you made sense of them.
Most of the messages were just jumps at every tangent you could possibly find, insisting on trying to squeeze to the last drop of it. Like on another thread, where a poster told his experience with what, according to his wife, could be ghosts, and people kept insisting on how he had marital problems for not being able to discuss the matter with her. Like it had anything to do with anything that was really the matter.
And from his first post, Locknar seems bent on proving that I have a covert belief in the supernatural and/or am a troll of some sort.
I discounted every explanation regarding the bottle because I had already given much thought to each one that was presented but there was always something that didn't quite fit, and all of you failed to present them in a way that filled all the gaps to my satisfaction.
For example, if me and my friends imagined the whole thing, where did the hallucination start, and where did it end? Because, apart from the initial shock, I don't recall feeling any different than before or after. Did we imagine the entire night? Did we only imagine the bottle flying when it reality it just tipped over?
Also, none of my friends has ever manifested any interest in magic. If anything, I am the enthusiast magician on the bunch, and I didn't find any invisible thread or any magic supply on the scene, right after the incident.
Earlier on this thread the consensus seemed to be that we should be content in not knowing, which was the place I already was, to begin with. Now it seems I should be content at trusting every word you say.
As for what I think was the case with the bottle, as I said on my first post, I don't know nor do I have any way, or intention, of knowing at this point. The only thing that can be examined right now is my memory, and as we all know that is not reliable. The only way I could take a better look into it was if it'd happen again, but it hasn't, and I doubt it ever will. So it's a moot point.
From where you guys stand, any of the following would suffice:
- they imagined the whole thing;
- his friends tricked him;
- his memory is embellishing the event;
- he is a troll.
To me, all of those are insufficient; at least in the way they were presented. So, for the last time, I'm not after explanations for the incidents I mentioned.
Thanks kittynh, tsg, JoeTheJuggler, for pointing out a few explicit principles instead of just rhetorics like 'don't be a woo-woo, possess critical thinking'.
Thanks Locknar, for referring me to the Book Review thread/forum.
Thanks Normal Dude, Quinn, Piggy and Lillith, for sharing experiences and telling how you made sense of them.
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JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
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The point is, even without filling in any gaps or coming up with a viable alternative solution, you have no evidence that something supernatural happened. At best you have something you can't explain. Accepting a supernatural explanation means rejecting major branches of knowledge that have a large body of reproducible evidence. Are you willing to do that? How about Newton's First Law? Are you willing to accept that sometimes a body at rest will not remain at rest without a net force acting on it? We could run an experiment millions of times, and I guarantee you not once (in a controlled test) out of that million will the body at rest suddenly move without a net force acting on it.
By the way, not being able to explain it really is the same as assuming something mundane happened that you don't understand (such as being tricked by your friends). Either it was something normal or something paranormal. Not knowing the cause does not support the paranormal. (And, as I just said, accepting the paranormal is absurd given what the significance of that would be.)
Sometimes the most gullible person is the one who thinks his knowledge and experience makes it impossible to dupe him. (Not that I'm arguing for the "your friends tricked you" hypothesis more than any other.)
How can you eliminate this one? Do you think you alone in all the human race have a memory that is not fallible?
Please, read up a bit on memory plasticity. It is very easy to fix a false memory. The conditions were right for this--a group of people telling ghost stories, then a quick sudden event, then lots of telling and re-telling of the story. (Unlike Locknar, I understand why you'd go right away to a paranormal thought--you'd been telling ghost stories when it happened. I remember telling ghost stories in a field at night with 3 friends when I was kid. When we were all pumped up with fear and adrenaline, we dared one kid to look in the window of this caretaker's house--we'd been making up stories that he's a child murderer. When he did, I made a loud noise, and all of us jump and ran like we were being chased by the devil. The noise itself wasn't enough to cause that reaction--but in the hyped up state we were in, anything would do it.)
Memory does not work like rewinding and replaying a videotape, even when you have a vivid mental image of an event, there's no guarantee that the event happened that way.
Also, how long ago did this happen?
JoeTheJuggler said:
Who said I'm willing to do that? Or that I think it was a ghost or anything of the sort? From the beginning I'm saying exactly the opposite. I don't mean to be harsh, but are you guys even reading?
JoeTheJuggler said:
A believer could argue that not being able to explain is really the same as assuming something paranormal happened that I don't udnerstand (as they have). I thought not being able to explain meant simply not knowing.
Did you just skip the part where I specifically said the following:
I used to feel like you guys just stopped reading whenever you found something you could readily oppose. Now I suppose I'm seeing evidence of it.
I didn't. My friends did and I was talking exactly about how I didn't.
I guess it was a little over two years ago.
I'm going to read up on memory plasticity, by the way. Seems like a very interesting read, thanks for the suggestion.
Wow...a pity they are ganging up on lil ole me post. Anybody question his sincerity?
Sigh.
If you guys can't stop nitpicking tangents I'd like to consider this thread closed. I should've paid more attention to Piggy's second post. I already have enough reading material for the weekend and I think everything good that could come out of this already did. Thanks to whomever was informative.
If you guys can't stop nitpicking tangents I'd like to consider this thread closed. I should've paid more attention to Piggy's second post. I already have enough reading material for the weekend and I think everything good that could come out of this already did. Thanks to whomever was informative.
Locknar
Sum of all evils tm
And what exactly did you expect from a skeptics forum, as a new and unknown poster and a poorly worded OP asking "how do skeptics rationalize paranormal events (my paraphrase)"....just open acceptance of all that you said, without any critical thinking being applied? Seems rather naive.
Same comment as above applies; I'm simply pointing out things that seem inconsistent in your various stories...something that skeptics & critical thinkers do.
So in other words you've already reached some kind of conclusion.... What things might we offer/suggest that you have not thought of? You are the one that was there...you tell us what you thought it was/might be.
I'd agree, seems a bit far fetched...but can you totally, 100% rule this out as a possibility? Again, we were not there...you were...you tell us.
Now you know why I question what you've said, unless you believe I should "be content at trusting every word you say."
While perhaps insufficient...can you totally eliminate any of those possibilities (with the exception of "he is a troll")? While perhaps not likely, are any of these at least possible?
What you are faced with is a simple problem (specific to your story anyway):
- It was a real, paranormal event...in which case you should alert the media!!
- There is some logical explanation not involving paranormal "woo woo"
In the end, only you can decide which you think is the right choice. In either case...why do you think that? Rather then us playing 20 questions....offering suggestions and you shooting them down, how about you tell us what you think it might be, the whys, the how's? You were the one there...not us.
We are all a summation of our past experiences. I watched as planes plowed into the Twin Towers...though I didn't "jump up" or become "absolutely terrified, pale, shaking" when I felt my building shake from a plane plowing into it as well. Then again, I've never been a "jump up in terror" type to begin with.
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