Pentagon Attack Witnesses - dissecting their testimony and credibility

[T.A.M.]

Donald's account is as follows:

"At 9:40 a.m. I was driving down Washington Boulevard (Route 27) along the side of the Pentagon when the aircraft crossed about 200 yards in front of me and impacted the side of the building. There was an enormous fireball, followed about two seconds later by debris raining down. The car moved about a foot to the right when the shock wave hit. I had what must have been an emergency oxygen bottle from the airplane go flying down across the front of my Explorer and then a second piece of jagged metal come down on the right side of the car."

He definitely says he saw the impact (see bolded) and even saw what sounds like plane debris come down on his car.

Are there any issues with respect to his location, distance, or background, that give you trouble Lyte, or anyone else?

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

As well, Maurice Bease was brought up, and I saw no mention of issues with his testimony, so where do you stand with him Lyte??

TAM

 

[Totovader]

Let's see if toto concedes he was incorrect or continues to count Hal Bidlack as a "credible" witness to the attack.

I've already responded to this, Lyte- you invented a strawman that I have no desire to entertain.

My statements regarding Mr. Bidlack were entirely accurate- which is exactly why you had to try and get away with a strawman: you refuse to address the facts.

From your statements above, it appears as if you're now trying to say that Mr. Bidlack is not a credible witness. Is that correct?

 

[alexg]

plane............ .... building
plane.......... building
plane ......building
plane .....building
plane ...building
planebuilding

Suppose (big if) a number of witnesses only saw a plane nose to nose with the building (or inescapably close) but missed the deatails of impact due to minor obstuction, distance, or even to the inability of the brain/eye to see/register/recall the infinitesimally small moment of impact before the fireball. Does this mean they didn't "see the collision"?

The idea that a plane of this size at that speed could have pulled up and gone over does not fit ANY eyewitness testimony (even Lyte's, though I admit I havn't seen his new stuff).

That Lagasse (and the other cop) are sure it went North is odd, I agree, but memory is a tricky thing at 5 years out (as you must have discovered by now Lyte, even if due to your youth you were unaware of the degree of this phenomenon before your research). Lagasse claims to have seen what I described above - planebuilding - this trumps his memory of the flight path in my book.

As yet, has any remotely credible account been given of an airliner screaming over the Pgon?

 

[Lyte Trip]

I have the list as follows:

1.. Steve Anderson - saw plane; assumed impact.

2. Deb Anlauf: - saw plane; believes she saw impact from a mile away.

3. David Battle - saw plane; assumed impact.

4. Gary Bauer: - saw plane; assumed impact.

5. Hal Bidlack. - not a visual witness to plane or impact.

6. Licoln Leibner. - saw plane; assumed impact.

7. Donald Bouchoux - saw plane; but does not claim to have "seen" impact and makes dubious claim of entire car moving from blast.

TAM

I'd say that your list is fair so far although it is not physically possible for Deb Anlauf to have seen the plane enter the building because she was a mile away.

Plus Donald Bouchoux does not claim to have "seen" the impact so you can not fairly count him as a witness who claims that he did so it is not undetermined.

 

[Hal Bidlack]

Lyte:

... Hal Bidlack, while a hero, and an honorable man, ...

TAM

please do not call me a hero. I did nothing heroic that day. The only heroes were the ones who stayed inside. I appreciate the kind words, but I am no hero.

and to be clear, I did not see the impact. I did hold aircraft parts in my hand, covered in fuel. I saw aircraft debris scattered around. I saw fire, I saw pain, I saw hell that day. You can decide what kind of witness you wish to call me.

and finally, baring further outrage, this will be my last comment in this thread. Again, I have no objection to Lyte's passion for knowledge. It is his tone, his condescension, his trivializing of that day (e.g., comments about his own great patriotism) that I find so off-putting. He is, I am told, a young man, and has the great passion that can come from that age, untempered by experience. I suspect he is, in real life, a likable fellow. But here, on this subject, I find him to be cruel, foolish, and arrogant.

Lt Col Hal Bidlack, Ph.D.
USAF, Retired

 

[T.A.M.]

Donalds own words are highlighted above for you. He clearly states that the plane crossed, and impacted the building. This, to any reasonable person, indicates he SAW the impact.

Maurice Bease has not been addressed.

Deb Alnauf did not have to see the plane enter the building to SEE THE IMPACT, she only had to see the plane HIT the side of the Pentagon, which she says she did, and you have stated her angle would allow it, her distance only inhibiting her seeing the detail of the impact.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Lt Bidlack:

Please understand, I meant no disrespect in my "classification" of you as a witness. I feel you saw and heard, as well as felt in your hands, enough to make you reasonably assume an Impact. In order to get any kind of consensus on what witness list we are compiling here, and to get at the heart of Lytes grievance with the witnesses, it seems we are going to confine this witness list to those who have made statements that imply they were visual witnesses to the impacts.

Take Care.

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

Donald's account is as follows:



He definitely says he saw the impact (see bolded) and even saw what sounds like plane debris come down on his car.

Are there any issues with respect to his location, distance, or background, that give you trouble Lyte, or anyone else?

TAM

He does NOT say that he saw the impact.

You are simply assuming that.

If he doesn't say that he saw it you can not assume it.

That is not a fair way to analyze these accounts because you will find that many people say something to the effect of "and then the plane hit the building" even if they could not see the building at all.

 

[T.A.M.]

Lyte:

He did not say the exact words, but from his testimony, a reasonable person would assume he saw it, unless he made mention that he did not.

For now, we will leave this witness in limbo, and perhaps we can come to some clarification his statement if you or someone else interviews him, or if there is another interview with him available that makes it clearer.

Fair enough?

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

As well, Maurice Bease was brought up, and I saw no mention of issues with his testimony, so where do you stand with him Lyte??

TAM

He does not claim to have seen the impact and he could not have seen the impact so he goes on the "assumed impact" list.

-"he stood outside his office near the Pentagon". That means he is either on the outside of the Pentagon near 77 ft of wall near either the north or the south parking lot.

-"He did not even have time to duck before it plowed into the side of the Pentagon around the corner and about 200 yards from where he stood." He ducked as it came over/at him. Sounds like he was at the Navy Annex. BUT CLEARLY HE MISSED THE IMPACT BECAUSE HE DUCKED BEFORE IT COULD PLOW INTO THE BUILDING. The writer inferred the impact. He did not and COULD NOT see the impact from the Navy Annex parking area.



-He called it white. Supports our plane. Over the Navy Annex supports the North side fight path.

 

[Lyte Trip]

Lyte:

He did not say the exact words, but from his testimony, a reasonable person would assume he saw it, unless he made mention that he did not.

For now, we will leave this witness in limbo, and perhaps we can come to some clarification his statement if you or someone else interviews him, or if there is another interview with him available that makes it clearer.

Fair enough?

TAM

We have attempted to contact him and have spoken with his son.

He hasn't returned our message.

It is not fair to assume anything.

This is the point.

Either you take their statements literally or you confirm their statements directly.

In the case of Bease the reporter is the one who mentions the impact and even the reporter does not specifically claim that he "saw the impact" therefore he does NOT count as a witness who "saw the impact".

This is the ENTIRE point.

There is a finite number of previously published accounts and when scrutinized you will see that there are not even close to 105 who can be confirmed as having "seen" the impact.

 

[T.A.M.]

Regarding Post 211:

Your last comment is irrelavent to the OP.

That said, In my opinion, the closeness of the plane over his head, along with his proximity to the impact site, makes him "reasonable to assume impact" witness in my books.

Wait...side note:

He is listed as a witness from the Navy Annex area...isnt that a mile from the Pentagon? Do we know where within the Annex his office was?

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Ok, updated list from this point:

1.. Steve Anderson - saw plane; assumed impact.

2. Deb Anlauf: - saw plane; saw impact, but from a distance.

3. David Battle - saw plane; assumed impact.

4. Gary Bauer: - saw plane; assumed impact.

5. Hal Bidlack. - not a visual witness to plane or impact.

6. Licoln Leibner. - saw plane; assumed impact.

7. Donald Bouchoux - Limbo, as testimony vague on him "Seeing" actual impact

8. Maurice Bease - saw plane, assumed impact

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Next Witness:

Sean Boger:

Here is his testimony/statement:

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building." "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." The crew, Boger and Spc. Jacqueline Kidd, air traffic controller and training supervisor, prepared for President George W. Bush to arrive from Florida around 12:30 p.m.

His article no longer available, so if someone can find it cached, it would be great.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_46/local_news/12049-1.html

This is a clean witness from his testimony pov. He clearly states he saw the plane HIT THE BUILDING.

Lyte?

TAM

 

[Lyte Trip]

Ok, updated list from this point:

1.. Steve Anderson - saw plane; assumed impact.

2. Deb Anlauf: - saw plane; saw impact, but from a distance.

3. David Battle - saw plane; assumed impact.

4. Gary Bauer: - saw plane; assumed impact.

5. Hal Bidlack. - not a visual witness to plane or impact.

6. Licoln Leibner. - saw plane; assumed impact.

7. Donald Bouchoux - Limbo, as testimony vague on him "Seeing" actual impact

8. Maurice Bease - saw plane, assumed impact

TAM

I can accept this list.

But let it be known that even the notion that Maurice Bease "assumed impact" is hearsay.

For all we know he looked up and saw the plane fly over the building.

Next!

 

[HyJinX]

Again, I have no objection to Lyte's passion for knowledge.

Mr. Bidlack I must disagree with you on the above statement whole-heartedly. I believe that Lyte has shown time and time again that his passion is NOT for knowledge...but rather a passion to be acknowledged. Critical thinking and rational thoughts get lost in the mind when all we concentrate on is being right rather than being truthful. I believe some conspiracy theorists waved bye-bye to rationality and decency long ago...and swapped those valuable virtues for web page hits and the chance for notoriety.

My .02 Cents.

 

[Lyte Trip]

Next Witness:

Sean Boger:

Here is his testimony/statement:



His article no longer available, so if someone can find it cached, it would be great.

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_46/local_news/12049-1.html

This is a clean witness from his testimony pov. He clearly states he saw the plane HIT THE BUILDING.

Lyte?

TAM

In the heliport tower and "coming right at us" is the North side flight path.

He is speaking figuratively. He just looked up saw the jet coming at him + Saw the explosion="I watched it hit the building".

He deduced the impact.

 

[JimBenArm]

In the heliport tower and "coming right at us" is the North side flight path.

He is speaking figuratively. He just looked up saw the jet coming at him + Saw the explosion="I watched it hit the building".

He deduced the impact.

You must have been the Twister all-time champion. I've never seen anyone able to contort and twist things like you do!

 

[T.A.M.]

In the heliport tower and "coming right at us" is the North side flight path.

He is speaking figuratively. He just looked up saw the jet coming at him + Saw the explosion="I watched it hit the building".

He deduced the impact.

you are speculating. His statements stands, and you have NO EVIDENCE to prove he was speaking figuritively. Unless you have a statement from him saying he did not see it, or physical proof through his location that he COULD NOT HAVE SEEN IT, than he saw the impact...whether you believe him or not, you do not have proof to show otherwise.

He is a "saw the impact witness", unless you have something else.

TAM