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Tai Chi?

Actually it's easier to find instructors who teach worthwhile Muay Thai than it is to find those who teach worthwhile Tai Chi, at least in the UK. My benchmark for worthwhile tai chi is "you'd be better doing this than spending half that time walking round the block". Although people rightly say to watch out for teachers talking about "chi" my own danger word is "balance", and other such nebulous terms.

Wudang, IIRC you train with a very respected IMA teacher.

For those who may be looking for good taijiquan in th UK check out Dan Docherty or Steve Rowe you'll get the goods.


Over here in the states Yang is the most bastardized, mostly because of all of the video-tape masters. Usually if you can find a Chen or Sun teacher they are much better. Proper IMA instruction is incredibly difficult to come by anywhere, so if someone's g/f wants them to go 'do' tai-chi at the local YMCA I say go for it. It won't hurt you and if you happen to be a skeptic, its not like you are going to hell just for doing some qigong.

Along that line, some of you really need to get a grip with the skepticism. You sound just as bad as the Fundies.


But I must say, Xingyiquan rules!!!
 
I'm not sure how it is where you live, but in Portland area, it's easier to find Muay Thai than Tai Chi.

Well, I say it because I've heard of Tai Chi for well over twenty years, but here at JREF is the first I've ever heard of Muay Thai.
 
Actually it's easier to find instructors who teach worthwhile Muay Thai than it is to find those who teach worthwhile Tai Chi, at least in the UK. My benchmark for worthwhile tai chi is "you'd be better doing this than spending half that time walking round the block". Although people rightly say to watch out for teachers talking about "chi" my own danger word is "balance", and other such nebulous terms.

The trouble with that statement is that people generally find a session of tai chi more enjoyable than a walk around the block. Anything that convinces people to get off their butts is better than nothing at all.
 
Ah no. Kickboxing is often bastardized karate with daft rules about having to do so many kicks or you don't get points. Muay thai is usually much rougher and uses elbows and knees.

Um, that's pretty much what I understand kickboxing to be. Perhaps it's different in this country.
 
So far as I know only a tiny minority of tai chi people can fight at all, and none of them have ever shown any inclination to demonstrate their skills against a full-contact athlete, even one of their own size, age and weight. So I think it's fairly likely, though not certain, that those guys aren't scary compared to a judoka or boxer of equivalent experience.
Since by athlete I assume you mean MMA, Neil Rosiak did pretty well on the amatuer vale tudo scene. As I recall he only had one pro fight and that was a draw.
Also, what does "study" mean when it comes to actually turning tai chi into something useful? (See below).
I would actually be very interested in hearing about what you do in the non-watered-down tai chi training. I suspect it's not much like what our little friend Tai Chi does at his training sessions. Or if it is, I'd question its status as not watered down.

The problem with teaching tai chi is, if you need the money (which luckily I didn't) you need to meet the expectations of the market to some degree so you don't optimize the training path. You start with teaching the form when you should teach a lot of basics first so you don't develop bad habits in the form. You don't tell people to go away if they don't want to break a sweat (I used to have a serving marine commando train with me because he enjoyed the workout, I used to need massive rehydration after those classes but it upped my game). You work with the bodies that babble about stimulating meridian points.

To make tai chi work, you first of all need bloody strong leg muscles. The conditioning exercises (first 4, 10 mins a day, 4 times a week) forced me to throw all my shorts out as they wouldn't go over my thighs. Then you well well-developed and trained back and abdominal muscles (including oblique) to harness the leg strength. One chinese expert (I think Chen Xiao Wang) said "the old guys used Qi to mean leg strength". In fact most of the conditioning exercise involve lots of deep unloaded squats.
The you need to practice the techniques at speed, with force against a resisting opponent. All these take time if you want to keep using the "body tricks" that make tai chi work and not revert to usuing "normal" muscle use. In fact there's a magic book called "Body magic" that decsribes a number of tricks that use the same sort of body skills as tai chi.
You can practice the form for years and get nowhere if you don't learn the basics first. It's like learning a recipe for some dish but not knowing what "browning the meat" means so you coat it with vegetable dye.
BTW - the full contact my tai chi style does now is Kuo Shuo rules - basically kickboxing - and almost nobody practises lei tai any more which is a great shame. Sure they compete but ......
And of course since everybody thinks that tai chi is the form then if you have memorised the shape of the form then surely you can teach everything you learned. When people ask questions that go beyond your knowledge then your deep understanding (and total absence of information) allows you to speculate freely about the symbolic import of a move, the meridians stimulated and so on. And so the BS keeps accumulating until you need wings to stay above it. I know a number of certified teachers in my style I regard as a waste of a name.
Sorry, went into vent mode.
 
My def of 'woo MA': any martial arts practice (trad. or modern) that bases it's combative theory on unproveable assumptions (i.e. ki/chi/qi; but note that those aren't the only woo in the MA community ...).

Caveat: The terms ki/chi/qi can be used (as Wudang said above) to mean somewhat other than mystical energy. It's a handy shorthand. In my particular martial practice (old style Japanese jujutsu with a fairly heavy weapons component) ki simply never appears unless it is in compound, used as a modifier. Many, many common Japanese phrases use the term 'ki' as a modifier in this manner. It usually signifies something to do with breathing (but not always) and has little or nothing to do with any sort of energy.

Note also that I do not define martial arts the same way Kevin Lowe and Thaiboxerken do, and I refer to what they call MMA as combatives sports. Nor do I define MA the same way, apparently, as the poster known as Tai Chi, but I base my definitions on studies of such folks as hoplologists and lifelong martial students Donn Draeger and Hunter B. Armstrong.

In other words, a fighting art is only martial if it can trace a direct connection to a parent military art. Many arts such as most of Okinawan karate, many of the Chinese systems, etc aren't 'martial' at all, but are in this light, seen as 'civil fighting arts.'

The point of all that is that there are dozens of definitions of MA out there, and labeling some of them as 'woo MA' is a bit disingenious when the MA community at large can't even really agree on what a 'martial art' or 'ki' or an interminable number of other things mean in the first place.

I'd much prefer to see folks talking about the misinterpretation of much Eastern tradition by folks in the west who have little or no understanding of the cultures and histories of the arts they study. But that's a different rant for a different board.

As to this question of whether to train in Tai Chi or not, it's pretty simple to me. If she likes the training, enjoys the teacher and the class, and benefits from it; then she's good to go. And that applies to studying Tai Chi, Feather Duster Fu or Table Tennis Do.

There's been a long and tedious discussion of the 'difference' between trad. MA and modern MA and terms and who can whup who's butt in another thread -- Why do people still study traditional martial arts? (This is Skepticism, not Sports) - look here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52005

Best,

Chuck
 
Well, I say it because I've heard of Tai Chi for well over twenty years, but here at JREF is the first I've ever heard of Muay Thai.
I would like to know more about this Mai Tai school of martial arts, and whether they have a two-drink minimum.
 
Hi everyone. I was bounce to this form from wikipedia and thought I would help you folks out.
The problem with most martial arts arguments (discussions) is that both sides of the arguments really don't have enough information to know what they are talking about. I.E.,people saying that the "chi" in tai chi means that it is woo are just showing their ignorance. This might help a little to get people at least on he same page...

Look up tai chi on wikipedia org

...but you will nogtice that the taiji symbol on that page is upside down.:confused:
 
Hi everyone. I was bounce to this form from wikipedia and thought I would help you folks out.
The problem with most martial arts arguments (discussions) is that both sides of the arguments really don't have enough information to know what they are talking about. I.E.,people saying that the "chi" in tai chi means that it is woo are just showing their ignorance. This might help a little to get people at least on he same page...

Look up tai chi on wikipedia org

...but you will nogtice that the taiji symbol on that page is upside down.:confused:

It seems you're implying that you are some kind of expert on either the Martial Arts or Tai Chi. Would you like to qualify that implication, for the benefit of everyone here?

Tai Chi, as it's trained by most schools/instructors out there, ranges from a light fitness class to full-blown Live Action Roleplaying including the cosplay-like dressing-up in silk outfits. However, there are a few "Tai Chi" schools that do pressure test the actual "martial" aspects, and include hard sparring and even full contact competition in their cirriculum.

And these are the only schools that can be considered worthwhile if you're considering it for self defense. If you do not actually fight fully resisting opponents in the more-or-less controlled sparring environment, you might as well be doing Pilates. They're about equal in terms of what they teach you in practical self defense, and you won't have to play dress up or engage in sinophilia.
 
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...the cosplay-like dressing-up in silk outfits.

Which is still infintely better than the fantasy rasslin'-like entrances in UFC-ish events, the ultra cool "tough/intimidating" nicknames they give themselves, the gaudy fake gold 'wurld champ' belts, the BJJ gis that have so many patches on them they look like the advertising on Nascar racecars, or the numerous tatoos that are seemingly a requirement among UFC-ish event brawlers.

Or Ortiz's haltertop from TUF. ;)

Most classes I've been in only advise to wear loose fitting clothing, mostly t-shirt and sweats. Phrost, no intelligent person seriously believes that wearing traditional Chinese clothing is cos-play or even cos-play like, but just traditional, like wearing a gi.
 
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It seems you're implying that you are some kind of expert on either the Martial Arts or Tai Chi. Would you like to qualify that implication, for the benefit of everyone here?

Ya, it does look like that, doesn’t it. Let's see if I can live up to the hype.

Tai Chi, as it's trained by most schools/instructors out there, ranges from a light fitness class to full-blown Live Action Roleplaying including the cosplay-like dressing-up in silk outfits. However, there are a few "Tai Chi" schools that do pressure test the actual "martial" aspects, and include hard sparring and even full contact competition in their cirriculum.

Not sure what your point is...there are bad and good instructors in every field you can think of, including tai chi.

And these are the only schools that can be considered worthwhile if you're considering it for self defense. If you do not actually fight fully resisting opponents in the more-or-less controlled sparring environment, you might as well be doing Pilates. They're about equal in terms of what they teach you in practical self defense, and you won't have to play dress up or engage in sinophilia.

Again, not quite following you... Are you saying that Pilates teaches self defense? Because you already said that tai chi can be used for self defense.

About "resisting opponents in a more-or-less controlled sparring environment", that is just one of many stages in the training process and no more emphasis should be place on that then any other stage. Without good basics the training with a resisting opponent will just lead to sloppy technique and/or injury. To learn how to fight you actually have to fight in a real fight anything else is just a step up on that learning curve.

Just an aside: a lot of the close in sport style grappling maneuvers can be negated by grabbing and twisting the fingers (Wally Jay proved this years ago). This is more so in the more static ground styles. Tai chi has small joint manipulation as part of it syllabus (chin na) one involves grabbing the index and middle finger with one hand and the ring and little finger with the other and pulling until the palm is split opened and separated.

One thing about martial arts that most people don't understand is that they all contain both grappling and striking. Lets look at tae kwon do for instance. No other martial arts gets picked on more than poor TKD. Did you know that even TKD has grappling in it? Before it was TKD it was Shotokan and before that it was Okinawan karate the style of Funakoshi and Mabuni Kenwa, students of Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu the first person to introduce 'TO-DE' into the Okinawa Dai Ichi. Yasutsune taught what has become the style of punch, block, kick that we see in many karate/tkd systems. Since he was teaching children he didn't teach the real fighting application of the kata, (he did not remove the grappling from the kata, just stopped showing it). It's still there if you know what to look for. This was the same style that GI's learned and brought back to the US which became the McDojo styles that many kids take today. Unfortunately for adults who want to learn how to fight, the key to unlocking the "kata key" is lost to most instructors.
 
Ya, it does look like that, doesn’t it. Let's see if I can live up to the hype.

How about you just answer the question and qualify your credentials?

Not sure what your point is...there are bad and good instructors in every field you can think of, including tai chi.

Most Tai Chi instructors are bad instructors.

Again, not quite following you... Are you saying that Pilates teaches self defense? Because you already said that tai chi can be used for self defense.

No, I'm saying Pilates and most examples of Tai Chi have the same merits as a self defense system.

About "resisting opponents in a more-or-less controlled sparring environment", that is just one of many stages in the training process and no more emphasis should be place on that then any other stage. Without good basics the training with a resisting opponent will just lead to sloppy technique and/or injury. To learn how to fight you actually have to fight in a real fight anything else is just a step up on that learning curve.

The problem with Tai Chi is that very few people who practice it ever even come close to doing more than push hands, which isn't even really sparring. Most training consists of forms practice, which while effective for teaching proper mechanics, (not making a statement about the effectiveness of Tai Chi's movements here, for the record), should never be the bulk of one's training any more than sitting in a garage turning the steering wheel and playing with the shifter should be the focus of a training program for a NASCAR driver.

If you're not sparring in every class, and the bulk of your training consists of minimal resistance training with compliant partners, your training is garbage.

Just an aside: a lot of the close in sport style grappling maneuvers can be negated by grabbing and twisting the fingers (Wally Jay proved this years ago). This is more so in the more static ground styles. Tai chi has small joint manipulation as part of it syllabus (chin na) one involves grabbing the index and middle finger with one hand and the ring and little finger with the other and pulling until the palm is split opened and separated.

This is a new twist (pun intended) on the "eye pokes, broken glass, and lava" argument. Sorry, it just doesn't fly. Small joint manipulation was perfectly legal in UFC 1, UFC 2, UFC 3, UFC 4, and I believe UFC 5 as well along with 30+ years of Vale Tudo fights in Brazil. Your anecdotes about Wally Jay mean nothing. We deal with facts here.

One thing about martial arts that most people don't understand is that they all contain both grappling and striking. Lets look at tae kwon do for instance. No other martial arts gets picked on more than poor TKD. Did you know that even TKD has grappling in it? Before it was TKD it was Shotokan and before that it was Okinawan karate the style of Funakoshi and Mabuni Kenwa, students of Yasutsune "Anko" Itosu the first person to introduce 'TO-DE' into the Okinawa Dai Ichi. Yasutsune taught what has become the style of punch, block, kick that we see in many karate/tkd systems. Since he was teaching children he didn't teach the real fighting application of the kata, (he did not remove the grappling from the kata, just stopped showing it). It's still there if you know what to look for. This was the same style that GI's learned and brought back to the US which became the McDojo styles that many kids take today. Unfortunately for adults who want to learn how to fight, the key to unlocking the "kata key" is lost to most instructors.

Taekwondo's grappling is garbage, and I'm well aware of it's 60ish year history as a Shotokan derivative. I'm also aware of BS nationalistic propaganda that's attempted to portray TKD as a 2000+ year old art, myths about high kicks being used to unseat mounted calvary, yadda yadda.

There is no "Kata Key", that's just spin used to justify crappling (unrealistic grappling) in order to market ____ art as having the same techniques as the popular (and effective) grappling styles.

Your kata is meaningless if you're not actually out there training in an "alive" manner, against fully resisting opponents intent on imposing their will and techniques upon you.

Now, who are you again, and what credentials do you have? Mine are in my signature file. I am an amatuer Mixed Martial Arts fighter, and own/operate the largest Martial Arts forum on the Internet, which just happens to be devoted to rooting out myths and BS in the arts like what is included in much of your post.

There's no sense in being coy here, unless you're trying to pretend you're someone you're not.

Oh and:

T'ai Chi
This message is hidden because T'ai Chi is on your ignore list.
.

Sorry, I won't respond to someone who's a known troll. There's no point in discussing anything with you because you've established that you're immune to logic, reason, and common sense.
 
I've done a little Tai Chi. Very relaxing but i didn't really have the patience for it. ;)
 
Ah no. Kickboxing is often bastardized karate with daft rules about having to do so many kicks or you don't get points. Muay thai is usually much rougher and uses elbows and knees.

Anymore, many places teach Muay Thai and simply call it kickboxing. They call the use of elbows and knees "Muay Thai rules."
 

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