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Income adjusted traffic violation fines

bruto

Penultimate Amazing
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I was not commenting on road laws.

I was commenting on using massive quantities of electronic surveillance to document your compliance with every rule of the road.

If you had a police car follow you every time you went out, then mailed you a ticket for any perceived infractions, you would consider this to be harassment and an abuse of power.

When it happens electronically, you are good with it.

I just don't understand.
OK, in that context it's different, and though I don't have a big problem with things like video coverage of stop lights, where accidents and right of way disputes are frequent, I agree that there's a level of surveillance that's excessive and oppressive, though I'd add that this is in part because it is so likely to intrude into other freedoms. The ability of authorities to use and misuse surveillance data for purposes other than simple traffic control has cropped up already, and threatens to do so more. It strays into other, more abstract social issues, of how government and the governed relate, how much the government presumes us to be default miscreants, and conversely how much we should trust government to behave well, and how much we should trust automation to behave accurately. All sorts of juicy ramifications including cost effectiveness, equity, and individual responsibility.

One such issue is the perennially contentious one, which crops up in other areas, of who should pay for what. Plenty of people, (wrongly in this case, I think) protest at being severally responsible for benefits they don't enjoy equally, such as education, policing and snowplowing, and other services that government at various levels deems sufficiently basic to a society's needs that we should all share equally in their cost. On the other hand, there are such services where the benefit and cost are not so clear, and that includes whether, for example, all drivers, including those who have managed to function for many years without endangering the public good, should share in the cost of setting up and running and administering a system that treats all drivers like naughty children or dogs needing a leash (see how easy it is, though, to spin the language when it's your own ox that's gored!).

This is also an area where geographical issues can intrude. While it's relatively easy to set up some kind of automated surveillance of urban intersections and ring-road speed traps and such, out here in the rural hinterlands, an effective electronic control would involve prohibitive expense for nearly no benefit. One could envision some system, such as requiring all cars to carry a computerized device that tracks their use and movement, which could then be read by law enforcement, with retroactive penalties for data collected. And that, of course, means not only that past actions with no consequence could be penalized with no argument, but that the data could be used for other purposes, such as determining whether a car driven by a pregnant woman was driven to a place where abortion might be performed, etc. And to be truly effective, it would have to carry penalties for tampering. When we weigh the theoretical benefit of better traffic control against the invasion of our lives, I think government loses this one.

That said, I think the specific Franklin quotation not particularly apt in this context.

Edit to add, sorry if this post is contrary to the Mod box above. I think it reasonable to have said the above in response to a previous post, but will consider the issue closed, except to mention that I think one of my problems with electric cars at the moment is not the idea of their being electric, or range anxiety, but the fact that so many seem to be dependent on a level of electronic connectivity that makes a level of government surveillance more possible, but also trends toward the subscription economy that I dislike.
 
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The discussion about speeding tickets in the EV forum got me thinking about how some countries in Europe are now adjusting traffic fines to income. The more money you make, the greater the fine. I have an opinion, but I'm very curious what the forum thinks about this.
 
I think it would cost too much to administer.

What really hurts rich drivers who get fines are the demerit points which come with them. They can rack up enough points to lose your licence quickly. Leave things as they are.
 
I think it would cost too much to administer.

What really hurts rich drivers who get fines are the demerit points which come with them. They can rack up enough points to lose your licence quickly. Leave things as they are.
There is an easy method: add it to the next vehicle registration cost.
 
There is an easy method: add it to the next vehicle registration cost.
You could, but the system in Australia seems to work. All automated now, but having to add income in would over complicate the system. And, as you know, rich people can hide their income very well.
 
Similarly, I've had three speeding tickets, over my entire driving life (46 years, 17 to 63).

I would have expected a jump when I switched to my current car, back in 2015, because there is no engine noise to tell you what speed you're doing.

Surprisingly, I've had zero tickets in that time.
 
Many super rich people treat traffic and parking fines as a mere operating cost for their vehicles.
My closest friend is now a Seattle Police Officer. But he used to be a Kirkland Police Officer which is a wealthy metro Seattle suburban enclave. At the time, annual license tabs costs were a percentage of the blue book value of the automobile. So if your vehicle was an old beater, the license tab renewal fees might be $50 . But if your car was a hundred thousand dollar super car it might be as much $2000 annually. My friend told me this story about pulling over a 5 year old Ferrari that had it's tabs expired 4 years prior.
The owner calculated that he simply wouldn't renew the vehicle license and just pay any tickets that were $125.

There are about 8 countries in Europe where ticket fines are adjusted to income. One driver reported receiving a $290,000 ticket. What's the purpose of tickets if it isn't a deterrent?
 
I think it would cost too much to administer.

What really hurts rich drivers who get fines are the demerit points which come with them. They can rack up enough points to lose your licence quickly. Leave things as they are.
They don't have much of a problem administering it in Europe. I really don't think it's hard.
 
I still don’t see any benefit to justify doing it.
Really? How is a ticket much of a deterrent if it doesn't hurt a little? A $250 ticket to someone living paycheck to paycheck is a huge reason for them to drive safely. Why care if it means nothing?
 
Really? How is a ticket much of a deterrent if it doesn't hurt a little? A $250 ticket to someone living paycheck to paycheck is a huge reason for them to drive safely. Why care if it means nothing?
I'm generally against this proposal as it means the government, i.e., other people, has access to your private finances. No, thank you. But fines should be generally applicable to everyone. You shouldn't be punished more simply because you're more successful (or better at managing your personal finances) than someone else. This just reeks of malicious envy.
 
I'm generally against this proposal as it means the government, i.e., other people, has access to your private finances. No, thank you. But fines should be generally applicable to everyone. You shouldn't be punished more simply because you're more successful (or better at managing your personal finances) than someone else. This just reeks of malicious envy.
You're not being punished more. If the fine doesn't hurt, how is that punishment at all?

And who says you are successful? There are lots of lucky sperms in this world. AKA Donald Trump, Henry Ford the second, the Walmart heirs. Etc, etc, etc.
 
I'm generally against this proposal as it means the government, i.e., other people, has access to your private finances. No, thank you.
The government already has access to your private finances - unless you don't pay income tax.
But fines should be generally applicable to everyone. You shouldn't be punished more simply because you're more successful (or better at managing your personal finances) than someone else. This just reeks of malicious envy.
The current system punishes people more if they are poor. $250 hurts a person on minimum wage a lot more than it hurts a person on $250k per year.
 
Really? How is a ticket much of a deterrent if it doesn't hurt a little? A $250 ticket to someone living paycheck to paycheck is a huge reason for them to drive safely. Why care if it means nothing?
As I said earlier, demerit points are the incentive for rich people to comply with road laws.
 
The government already has access to your private finances - unless you don't pay income tax.

No. Taxes are private information. And in my state, there isn't even an income tax. There's no way for the cop to know my income.

The current system punishes people more if they are poor. $250 hurts a person on minimum wage a lot more than it hurts a person on $250k per year.

It doesn't punish you for being poor. You're punished for what you did. Don't excuse bad behavior because someone, by your definition, is "poor."
 
You're not being punished more. If the fine doesn't hurt, how is that punishment at all?

And who says you are successful? There are lots of lucky sperms in this world. AKA Donald Trump, Henry Ford the second, the Walmart heirs. Etc, etc, etc.
So, malicious envy.
 

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