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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off.
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I thought Swedish customs was already in on the military technology thing?

Vixen said:
Hence the opening of the car ramp. The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value.
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Yes, because drug syndicates know that the best way to smuggle drugs is in large, conspicuous vehicles that look like they don't belong there.
 
Vixen said:
Oh for heavens sake, this is a current affairs news item, which is followed with great in these parts. Andi Meister's recent death was a news item here. In addition, Harry Ruotsalainen's theory about trucks had a double page spread in my local paper. Linus Andersson has also featured, as he lives around here. This newspaper is roughly the equivalent standard of the GUARDIAN.
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Why does that make it true?
 
Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off. Hence the opening of the car ramp. The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value. Who knows, but Silver Linde did get nine years for drug smuggling some years later. The bow ramp could just as easily been opened by a person or persons, as a 'strong wind' knocking off the entire structure.
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So it wasn't a bomb that did it?

One of the crew opened the bows of the ship in a storm to dump a truck overboard?

Do you know how mad that sounds?
 
Vixen said:
Oh for heavens sake, this is a current affairs news item, which is followed with great in these parts. Andi Meister's recent death was a news item here. In addition, Harry Ruotsalainen's theory about trucks had a double page spread in my local paper. Linus Andersson has also featured, as he lives around here. This newspaper is roughly the equivalent standard of the GUARDIAN.
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Waffle that doesn't actually address the post quoted.
 
Vixen said:
Those were two independent eye witness accounts who claim to have seen them: Ovberg and Sara Hedrenius.
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Evidence it actually happened?
Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off. Hence the opening of the car ramp. The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value. Who knows, but Silver Linde did get nine years for drug smuggling some years later. The bow ramp could just as easily been opened by a person or persons, as a 'strong wind' knocking off the entire structure.
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Have you, or indeed Mister, the slightest speck of evidence for this nonsensical drivel?
Vixen said:
AIUI those actuary tables were devised in the 1940's when everybody was more svelte
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No the actuarial tables have been updated, several times. Something you should know...

P.J. Denyer said:
Jewish Space Lasers? Has anyone considered if Israel was involved?
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Bollyn.
 
catsmate said:
No the actuarial tables have been updated, several times. Something you should know...
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Actuarial tables are updated pretty regularly; in some cases, periodic updates are mandated by law. The IRS updates theirs once every 10 years. They're important for managing insurance policies and pension funds.

Somehow, I continue to be surprised at the things Vixen is ignorant of.
 
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Vixen said:
Voronin being >17st overweight at age 37, strikes me as definitely in the health-risk range assuming he was average height.
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How do you know Voronin was >17st? You’ve claimed Flashes in the Night by Jack Nelson as your source, but refuse to quote the part that says he was 245lbs. Instead you’ve quoted him being “broad shouldered” “a Russian bear of a man” with no mentioned of his weight. You’ve also described in your own words him as being “massively overweight” “morbidly obese” “hugely overweight”, hopping on one leg, suffering from an excruciating back injury. Edit: “a highly unfit man (who had suffered strokes and heart attacks and was medically very obese”, another quote from Vixen.

When asked for your sources on any of these, you first say Nelson probably talked to Voronin himself, when reminded that the book was published 8 years after Voronin;s death, you guessed that Nelson talked to someone else - Vassily, then you came out with a weird comment about “Vashya” saying “I will never abandoned you” and that “Vashya” (I’ve no idea who that is, I don’t have the book) is a “direct source” (or something similar) for your claims about Voronin’s health and weight. Also you claimed that Voronin had suffered multiple strokes and heart attacks already, can you source and cite that?

Can you clarify any of this? Where are you getting Voronin’s being hugely overweight, morbidly obese, having an excruciating back injury, already suffering multiple stroke etc. Or can you clarify what you can confidently state about his health and what sources you’re actually using with some detail? I’m still confused about “Vashya” saying “I will never abandon you” explaining Nelson’s source for Voronin’s weight, health, strokes, hopping on one leg, excruciating back injury, etc.

You’ve now whittled down your story of a hugely overweight Voronin, with an excruciating back injury, hopping on one leg, having suffered multiple strokes already, to someone “in the health risk range”. In the “health risk range” for what? And what does it have to with him surviving the sinking?

Remember, I’m asking about Voronin and his health and weight and your sources for your claims about them.
 
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Reformed Offlian said:
Actuarial tables are updated pretty regularly; in some cases, periodic updates are mandated by law. The IRS updates theirs once every 10 years. They're important for managing insurance policies and pension funds.

Somehow, I continue to be surprised at the things Vixen is ignorant of.
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Surprising that 'Superaccountant' seems again ignorant of something that I would have thought should be basic knowledge for someone in the field....
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Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, [...]
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It's kind of interesting to compare that to this description in Wikipedia:

Aleksander Einseln (25 October 1931 – 16 March 2017) was an Estonian general, the Commander of the Estonian Defence Forces from 1993 to 1995 and previously a United States Army colonel. Born in Estonia, his mother and he fled the Red Army, which was resuming its occupation of the country. From 1950 to 1985, he served in the US Army, taking part in the Korean War, and as a Special Forces A-team commander in the Vietnam War. In 1993, at the request of President Lennart Meri, he returned to Estonia to serve as the first Commander of the Estonian Defence Forces following the restoration of Estonia's independence.
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Vixen said:
Those were two independent eye witness accounts who claim to have seen them: Ovberg and Sara Hedrenius.
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Nobody cares. The bow-visor was knocked off in heavy seas. The Estonia was never designed for open-ocean transit. Nobody bothered to ask.

Just a series of mistakes which led to disaster. No real conspiracy.

And why have you not asked yourself why there is a group of "German Experts" in the first place? And why are they spreading counter-claims about the accident? Your paranoia is misplaced.
 
Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC.
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Meister is full of crap.

Vixen said:
The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off. Hence the opening of the car ramp.
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Do you even read, let alone think about the things you post?

Here's why this is crap: There was huge storm raging that night. This has never been in dispute, and we have video of the rescues to confirm the storm, and eye-witnesses from the responding ships to the ferocity of the weather that night. NOBODY IS OPENING THAT DOOR TO LOWER THE BOW RAMP IN THAT WEATHER. I don't care who's on the phone, it's not happening.

Your next problem is you contradict your other theories about smuggling since all the actual evidence suggests THE SWEDES WHERE THE ONES DOING SMUGGLING. What, SAAB can't call friends in Swedish government to get customs to look the other way? Wouldn't SAAB and Swedish intelligence team up? How do you not understand how real clandestine stuff works?

And where are the trucks now? Not on the sea floor. They'd be close by since the car deck filled rapidly, so easily with a mile of the wreck. Why haven't they been found? Where are the stories of a mysterious Russian salvage operation in that area in the months after the sinking?

Vixen said:
The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value.
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No. Just no.

Seriously, what kind of drugs did they have in Estonia back then that addicts in Sweden wanted? Was Estonia the lone source for these narcotics? And why dump it in the middle of a storm when they'd have no clue is Swedish Customs had been tipped off or not. No cell phones back then, how would they know?

Vixen said:
The bow ramp could just as easily been opened by a person or persons, as a 'strong wind' knocking off the entire structure.
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Do us a favor and walk us through the process of opening the bow-visor, and lowering the ramp. And then tell us how this would happen without anyone on the bridge noticing the massive visor blocking forward view. Be as detailed as possible.
 
Axxman300 said:
Seriously, what kind of drugs did they have in Estonia back then that addicts in Sweden wanted? Was Estonia the lone source for these narcotics? And why dump it in the middle of a storm when they'd have no clue is Swedish Customs had been tipped off or not. No cell phones back then, how would they know?
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There were mobile phones in '94, though. That is at least a possibility.
 
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