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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
I reported what Jutta Rabe reported,
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OK, you're saying Rabe is the author of your claims about Aleksandr Voronin's spacecraft related businesses then, yes?
Vixen said:
...and then you reported another newspaper,
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...and therfore your source must be a newspaper, as you say that I 'reported another newspaper'. Can you cite to your source, as I did mine?
Vixen said:
...dated years later,
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Years later than what? How many years?
Vixen said:
Both faithfully reported,
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debatable, obviously [gestures vaguely around and about].
Vixen said:
...as one would expect in a current affairs item.
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Why would one expect that? The early days of a 'current affairs item' are when I would expect the least accurate, most partisan reporting to occur, you know: before the facts are known.
Vixen said:
Which report is the correct one, as they cannot both be right? I would say the truth lies somewhere in the middle
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Why? Why not 'option A is right, option B is wrong', or vice versa? I agree that both can't be true, but that doesn't make both half true, or a little bit true, or truish if you squint a bit at the right time of day.

Vixen said:
Voronin's attaché case WAS in Piht's cabin
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Allegedly. As yet not definitively proven..
Vixen said:
and the Rocckwater guys did seem to seek it out.
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'seem to'? According to you, though your the interpretation you champion is not anywhere near universally accepted.
Vixen said:
What does it mean? <shrug> Who knows?
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weak dismount.
 
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junkshop said:
OK, you're saying Rabe is the author of your claims about Aleksandr Voronin's spacecraft related businesses then, yes?

...and therfore your source must be a newspaper, as you say that I 'reported another newspaper'. Can you cite to your source, as I did mine?

Years later than what? How many years?

debatable, obviously [gestures vaguely around and about].

Why would one expect that? The early days of a 'current affairs item' are when I would expect the least accurate, most partisan reporting to occur, you know: before the facts are known.

Why? Why not 'option A is right, option B is wrong', or vice versa? I agree that both can't be true, but that doesn't make both half true, or a little bit true, or truish if you squint a bit at the right time of day.


Allegedly. As yet not definitively proven..

'seem to'? According to you, though your the interpretation you champion is not anywhere near universally accepted.

weak dismount.
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Rabe worked for Der Spiegel. I don't know where she got her info from.
 
Vixen, the only location anyone can find that states as you have that Voronin owned a business dealing in spacecraft or spacecraft related materials is Christopher Bollyn. Now, obviously you aren't going to have got your information from him having spent several days attempting to claim he was a disinformation agent, so where did you get it from?

Because if you can't or won't tell us, and the only other place we can find the claim is Bollyn well...it looks like you got your claim from Bollyn.
 
Unless confirmed to the contrary, I assume Vixen's source is always estoniaferrydisaster.net and when she tells us what a person or newspaper said she's actually telling us what that website tells her they said. Whenever she uses another source my first instinct is to assume that was the result of a bit of googling to find someone who repeated what estoniaferrydisaster.net said.

Bollyn makes a bit of a change.
 
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Mojo said:
Is Der Spiegel the source of your claims about Aleksandr Voronin's spacecraft related businesses?
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It would have been the German Group of Experts. The speculation was likely why the interest in a briefcase name tag, when the bodies on the bridge remained unidentified, bearing in mind it was third officer Tammes giving the Mayday on a hand held device, rather than the captain by proper means. So yes, there was curiosity around this aspect, especially as illicit smuggling was confirmed to have taken place in the same month on the same ferry,
 
Vixen said:
Might I be so bold as to jump six steps ahead so as to save wasting any further bandwidth?

Rabe explained how divers hired by the Swedish government spent hours breaking into cabins and frantically searching for the black briefcase that Russian space technology trader Aleksandr Voronin had been carrying.

Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called “Kosmos Association,” while his brother Valeri owned a similar company in Moscow that traded in weapons and space technology.
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Voronin dealt in space craft. That is what the divers were interested in. Who cares if this was software or hardware?
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It seems that you forgot to provide attribution for your quote. Let me help:
Christopher Bollyn said:
Rabe explains how divers hired by the Swedish government spent hours breaking into cabins frantically searching for a black attaché case carried by a Russian space technology dealer, Aleksandr Voronin.

Voronin owned a company in Tallinn called "Kosmos Association" while his brother, Valeri, had a similar company in Moscow that traded weapons and space technology.
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By Christopher Bollyn Exclusive for ZeitenSchrift* (reposted by Estonia Litigation Association**, found via wayback machine)
*defunct **also defunct
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
Unless confirmed to the contrary, I assume Vixen's source is always estoniaferrydisaster.net and when she tells us what a person or newspaper said she's actually telling us what that website tells her they said. Whenever she uses another source my first instinct is to assume that was the result of a bit of googling to find someone who repeated what estoniaferrydisaster.net said.

Bollyn makes a bit of a change.
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It's weird the Germans have refused to sign the Estonia Treaty and whilst the conjecture is it's because the shipmaker was Meyer-Werft, a German shipbuilders, if I recall correctly, the ship was built in Finland, where many people are employed in the Meyer-Werft shipbuilding sites, even today. So the challenges aren't just to do with German pride and trying to protect the ship designers. And it's not just the Germans, the Estonians were also keen to investigate further.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Vixen, the only location anyone can find that states as you have that Voronin owned a business dealing in spacecraft or spacecraft related materials is Christopher Bollyn. Now, obviously you aren't going to have got your information from him having spent several days attempting to claim he was a disinformation agent, so where did you get it from?

Because if you can't or won't tell us, and the only other place we can find the claim is Bollyn well...it looks like you got your claim from Bollyn.
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Well Vixen?
 
Vixen said:
It would have been the German Group of Experts. The speculation was likely why the interest in a briefcase name tag, when the bodies on the bridge remained unidentified, bearing in mind it was third officer Tammes giving the Mayday on a hand held device, rather than the captain by proper means. So yes, there was curiosity around this aspect, especially as illicit smuggling was confirmed to have taken place in the same month on the same ferry,
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Answer the question, which is where did you get the information.

After all, you will have it to hand:

Vixen said:
I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.


Estonia Ferry Disaster com
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Vixen said:
Please stop sweating the small stuff. Yesterday it was the meaning of 'software'.
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Absolutely pathetic.

You never did answer that question either.

It is not "small stuff" to ask where you got your information from. You are obviously trolling at this point for attention and it's pathetic.
 
So we have learned that Vixen does not know what software is, and she got her information on Voronin from noted racist and conspiracy theorist Christopher Bollyn. Afterall, she refuses to answer questions on them and keeps deflecting so that's the obvious explanation as to why.
 
junkshop said:
It seems that you forgot to provide attribution for your quote. Let me help:

By Christopher Bollyn Exclusive for ZeitenSchrift* (reposted by Estonia Litigation Association**, found via wayback machine)
*defunct **also defunct
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Seems to have been originally reported in Süddeutsche Zeitung.


The reason for the cover-up was classified documents that were allegedly found in the cabin of Captain Avo Piht during the 1994 dives, Rabe claimed in the influential daily Süddeutsche Zeitung on Saturday. Namely, video footage from 1994 shows that the name of the owner, Aleksandr Voronin, is on the side of the diplomatic briefcase that was retrieved from there, but what became of the briefcase is unknown. According to Rabe, Piht was accommodated elsewhere on the night of the shipwreck. A more important person, Voronin, was allegedly traveling in Piht's cabin. According to Rabe, the latter was the head of a Russian-US aerospace company, whose services were also used by the Pentagon. September 24, 2002, 07:14 Postimees
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