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Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"

bobdroege7 said:
It is the gift of Abgar, the Mandylion, and is shown in the Pray Codex.

Remember, none of you have proven that the Pray Codex does not show the shroud.
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And you have not proven that it does.

The Pray Codex shows an unnaturally rigid rectangular object, and a wadded up ball near it that looks remarkably like wadded up cloth.

The rigid rectangular object shows no human image, which is the defining characteristic of the shroud. It has a random figure of 'holes', that continue off the rigid rectangular thing, but are asserted to be the holes from a fire which took place 300 years later? They are also in a different place, orientation, and proportion than the fire damage holes.

The underside of the 'shroud' is adorned with bright red Templar crosses. And you say these appear on the Turin shroud?

All in, the evidence suggests this was not a representation of the Turin Shroud. By a long shot.
 
bobdroege7 said:
It is the gift of Abgar, the Mandylion, and is shown in the Pray Codex.
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No.
bobdroege7 said:
Remember, none of you have proven that the Pray Codex does not show the shroud.
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Yes we did. Fringe resets don't alter reality.
bobdroege7 said:
I suggest you read this book.
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No. You made the claim, you provide the evidence that supports your claim.
Stop chickening out and expecting others to do your job.

bobdroege7 said:
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That book, like Wilson's previous attempt, is full of errors, omissions, distortions and outright nonsense.
Seriously? Wilson? He of the magic "3D" scanner drivel? The Templecombe panel debacle? The radiocarbon sampling lies?

Oh good grief.
 
Thermal said:
And you have not proven that it does.

The Pray Codex shows an unnaturally rigid rectangular object, and a wadded up ball near it that looks remarkably like wadded up cloth.

The rigid rectangular object shows no human image, which is the defining characteristic of the shroud. It has a random figure of 'holes', that continue off the rigid rectangular thing, but are asserted to be the holes from a fire which took place 300 years later? They are also in a different place, orientation, and proportion than the fire damage holes.

The underside of the 'shroud' is adorned with bright red Templar crosses. And you say these appear on the Turin shroud?

All in, the evidence suggests this was not a representation of the Turin Shroud. By a long shot.
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Also the supposed "burns" on the (alleged) cloth in the codex don't match the Lirey cloth.
Also there is the embarrassing matter of the dates.
 
The Norseman said:
Remember YOU said:



So go ahead and provide it.

Everything else you say is pure distraction.
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The shroud has been dated to the first century AD by several methods.

"Moreover, other dating methods agree in the assignment of the TS to the first century AD [5,10,11,12]. Spectroscopic methods, based on Fourier Transform Infrared spectroscopy/Attenuated Total Reflectance [10] and Raman spectroscopy [11], date the Shroud to 300 Before Christ (BC) ± 400 years and 200 BC ± 500 years, respectively. The mechanical multi-parametric method, based on an analysis of five parameters, including the breaking load and Young’s modulus and the loss factor, after an adequate calibration based on the results of two dozen samples of known age, dates TS as 400 AD ± 400 years old [12]. Estimates of the kinetic constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin suggest that TS has an age range from 1300 to 3000 years [5]. A recent numismatic analysis [13] proposes that TS was already present in 692 AD."

From: https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/5/2/47
 
Thermal said:
And you have not proven that it does.

The Pray Codex shows an unnaturally rigid rectangular object, and a wadded up ball near it that looks remarkably like wadded up cloth.

The rigid rectangular object shows no human image, which is the defining characteristic of the shroud. It has a random figure of 'holes', that continue off the rigid rectangular thing, but are asserted to be the holes from a fire which took place 300 years later? They are also in a different place, orientation, and proportion than the fire damage holes.

The underside of the 'shroud' is adorned with bright red Templar crosses. And you say these appear on the Turin shroud?

All in, the evidence suggests this was not a representation of the Turin Shroud. By a long shot.
Click to expand...

Defining characteristic of the cloth, which would be too difficult to present on the image on the Pray Codex? The holes are not random, they match the holes on the shroud, and they came from a fire before about AD 1200.

The crosses indicate what the herringbone weave looks like from the back side, I suggest you look at the pictures of the Raes sample.

Not all in, there are several features of the Pray Codex that do indeed match the shroud
 
catsmate said:
Also the supposed "burns" on the (alleged) cloth in the codex don't match the Lirey cloth.
Also there is the embarrassing matter of the dates.
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Yes, the very embarrassing matter of the dates from the Damon paper.

You know they withheld their data for almost 30 years.

And that data when finally released showed they lied about their calculations.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Defining characteristic of the cloth, which would be too difficult to present on the image on the Pray Codex?
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Would've been a piece of cake, with it stretched out so utterly unnaturally like it was. Actually it was harder to not present it with all the available space. It is extremely conspicuous by its absence.
bobdroege7 said:
The holes are not random, they match the holes on the shroud, and they came from a fire before about AD 1200.
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There was no such fire before 1532.
bobdroege7 said:
The crosses indicate what the herringbone weave looks like from the back side, I suggest you look at the pictures of the Raes sample.
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It looks nothing like those bold red Templar crosses.
bobdroege7 said:
Not all in, there are several features of the Pray Codex that do indeed match the shroud
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Haven't seen any yet, but am interested if you find something.
 
bobdroege7 said:
The shroud has been dated to the first century AD by several methods.
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Oh look, more bollocks.
bobdroege7 said:
"Moreover, other dating methods agree in the assignment of the TS to the first century AD [5,10,11,12]. Spectroscopic methods, based on Fourier Transform Infrared spectroscopy/Attenuated Total Reflectance [10] and Raman spectroscopy [11], date the Shroud to 300 Before Christ (BC) ± 400 years and 200 BC ± 500 years, respectively. The mechanical multi-parametric method, based on an analysis of five parameters, including the breaking load and Young’s modulus and the loss factor, after an adequate calibration based on the results of two dozen samples of known age, dates TS as 400 AD ± 400 years old [12]. Estimates of the kinetic constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin suggest that TS has an age range from 1300 to 3000 years [5]. A recent numismatic analysis [13] proposes that TS was already present in 692 AD."

From: https://www.mdpi.com/2571-9408/5/2/47
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Sigh. Not this nonsense again. We've covered the FTIR and Adler's claims already in this thread. It doesn't demonstrate the age of the Lirey cloth.

BTW the "paper" to which you link isn't about FTIR it's about WAXS. Try and get your story straight......

We've also covered WAXS previously, along with Fanti's efforts to try and prove the cloth is genuine. Remember? Dodgy science, conflicts of interest, dubious samples and the attitude of archaeologist to Fanti's magical technique.
As an aside, Fanit's alleged sample comes from the same threads as the radiocarbon dating; hence if shroudies don't accept them as representative for that test, then it's blatantly hypocritical to accept them for WAXS.


So, @bobdroege7 what exactly are the "several methods" that you claim date the Lirey cloth to first century Palestine.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Defining characteristic of the cloth, which would be too difficult to present on the image on the Pray Codex? The holes are not random, they match the holes on the shroud, and they came from a fire before about AD 1200.
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Oh look, lies.
bobdroege7 said:
The crosses indicate what the herringbone weave looks like from the back side, I suggest you look at the pictures of the Raes sample.
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Except they don't.
bobdroege7 said:
Not all in, there are several features of the Pray Codex that do indeed match the shroud
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Ehhhh, no.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Yes, the very embarrassing matter of the dates from the Damon paper.
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Embarrassing to shroudies, indeed.
Shroud RC results.jpg

bobdroege7 said:
You know they withheld their data for almost 30 years.
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This is, as you well know, a lie.
You are reduced to desperately failing around in your need for the Lirey cloth to be a biblical residue.
bobdroege7 said:
And that data when finally released showed they lied about their calculations.
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Also untrue.
 
bobdroege7 said:
Good Grief yes, flapping your arms does not constitute a debunking of the Pray Codex.
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I debunked you lies and nonsense previously. Just because you can't handle reality doesn;t mean you get to alter it to support you desperate need.
 
GlennB said:
It seems academic -
"In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating to determine that the Shroud of Turin was made between 1260 and 1390 AD,"
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No, the carbon dating was done on a tiny piece of fabric from the edge of the Shroud that was not part of the original and that had been handled dozens of times over the centuries.

The pollen evidence is important:

Pollens from 58 species of plants have been found on the Shroud. But only 17 of these, i.e., less than one-third, grow in France or Italy. It was to be expected that pollen from European plants would be found on the Shroud. But in view of the immense variety of European vegetation, the small representation of European species is astonishing. Some of the pollen comes from Israel/Palestine.

The spectrum of non-European species is highly astonishing. It is true that some of these plants grow in many regions of Africa and Western Asia, but only some of them. There is only one place where all these plants—with the exception of three, which need special consideration—grow in a very small radius: Jerusalem. (https://shroud.com/pdfs/ssi10part4.pdf)

The image on the Shroud, though 2D, contains 3D information. Scientists did not know how to put 3D information on 2D images until modern times. The fact that the Shroud contains 3D information was not discovered until the 1970s.

The Shroud image is a negative image. This key fact was discovered by accident in the 1890s.

Multiple scientific analyses of the Shroud have proved that there are no traces of paint of any kind on it. So the idea that a clever forger in the 14th century painted the image is impossible.

Graphics analysis of the Shroud proves the cloth was once wrapped around a human body.

I recommend these two documentaries on the Shroud:

Watch The Real Face Of Jesus? | Prime Video

The origins of Christianity have been debated amongst scholars and experts over the centuries. A team of graphic experts use cutting-edge software to bring the Shroud of Turin to life. Many believe Jesus Christ was buried in this ancient linen cloth. It is also thought to have traces of blood...
www.amazon.com

Watch The Shroud Face to Face | Prime Video

When Orlando was first approached about making a documentary about the Shroud of Turin, he was skeptical of the project-and the Shroud itself. Then he came across conflicting opinions in history and science. This, along with his desire to learn more about the life of Jesus and make sense about...
www.amazon.com
 
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We have tangible evidence of Christ's resurrection: the Shroud of Turin.

In 2022 researchers in Italy published the results of a study that used the technique of wide-angle X-ray scattering (WAXS) to analyze a small piece of the Shroud. The study concluded that the structural degradations of the Shroud’s linen were “fully compatible” with those of another linen sample that has been dated, according to historical records, to 55–74 AD. Environmental carbon contamination was suggested as the source of the discrepancy between those findings and the results of the carbon dating in the 1980s. The 2022 study’s results bolstered the hypothesis that the Shroud of Turin truly is from the time of Christ (https://www.patternsofevidence.com/...ests-date-turin-shroud-to-the-time-of-jesus/; https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shroud-of-Turin).

The Patterns of Evidence group notes that the Shroud was not, and could not have been, painted, and that only in recent times have scientists found a way to discolor linen strands the way Shroud's linen strands are discolored--and that was by subjecting the linen to microbursts from high-energy lasers:

To this day, after exhaustive scientific study and numerous attempts to duplicate the figure of the man shown on it, no one has been able to do this at the microscopic level of the linen fibers. The image is on the outermost layers of those fibers as discolorations. They are microscopic pixels. The image is not painted, despite the continued claims of people who simply repeat this explanation over and against the verdict of the experts from the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), and others before and since.

The only traces of paint are from duplicates of the Shroud that were pressed against the Shroud to sanctify the duplicates in earlier centuries. These are tiny flakes of paint. The linen fibers themselves show no trace of brush strokes, binder or pigment. Nothing has soaked in; nothing is present to soak in.

Only in very recent times have scientists found a way to discolor linen strands as they are found in the Shroud of Turin, discolorations penetrating only to a tiny fraction of the width of a human hair. It was done with microbursts from high energy lasers. A burst of high energy! (https://www.patternsofevidence.com/2022/04/15/evidence-for-jesus-shroud-of-turin/)

The carbon dating done on the Shroud in 1988 was invalid because it was done on a piece of fabric from a part of the edge of the Shroud that was not part of the original cloth and that was handled repeatedly over the centuries.

Journalist William West began his research believing the Shroud was a forgery and he intended to prove it, but he ended up changing his mind after he examined the evidence, including how the image on the Shroud was made:

So why do so many people think the Shroud is some kind of miracle? Well, apart from the image’s photo-negative features, the Shroud has no traces of any artistic medium – no paint, pigment, ink or dye, but is inexplicably made from a microscopic layer of discoloured linen microfibres, found only on the microscopic surface of the cloth. (This means the image could not have been caused by a fluid or even gas, both of which would have penetrated much deeper into the cloth.) Many scientists have concluded it is an image that could only have been produced by a burst of radiation from the body. (https://gript.ie/new-evidence-for-the-shroud-of-turin-suggests-that-it-is-authentic/)

More evidence of the Shroud's authenticity:

www.ncregister.com

Holy Shroud of Turin’s Authenticity Can No Longer Be Disputed, Expert Asserts

Jean-Christian Petitfils, who has studied the Holy Shroud for more than 40 years, discusses the findings detailed in his new book that is labeled as a ‘definitive investigation’ of the precious linen cloth.
www.ncregister.com www.ncregister.com


An Oxford graduate and former skeptic of the Shroud explains the evidence that changed his mind about the Shroud:
 
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bobdroege7 said:
I am not a believer in any gods or supernatural phenomenon.
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Have you since seen the light?

M

Post in thread 'Does the Shroud of Turin Show Expected Elongation of the Head in 2D?"'

We have tangible evidence of Christ's resurrection: the Shroud of Turin.

In 2022 researchers in Italy published the results of a study that used the technique of wide-angle X-ray scattering (WAXS) to analyze a small piece of the Shroud. The study concluded that the structural degradations of the Shroud’s linen were “fully compatible” with those of another linen sample that has been dated, according to historical records, to 55–74 AD. Environmental carbon contamination was suggested as the source of the discrepancy between those findings and the results of the carbon dating in the 1980s...
 
mikegriffith1 said:
No, the carbon dating was done on a tiny piece of fabric from the edge of the Shroud that was not part of the original
...
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Blue Mountain said:
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! No matter how many times you repeat the lie that the sample was taken from a patched area of the shroud, this is simply not the case!

At this point the thread is like trying to argue with a three year old child. It's probably best to give the kid a kiss and put him to bed.
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