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Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc

"Sometimes segregation is a good thing."

Are you hearing yourself?
I rather think that segregating teenaged males from teenaged females is a good thing in away-trips. I also think that segregating adults from children is a good thing in a lot of situations too. Segregating male and female sleeping areas in hostels is a good thing. So is segregating roller coaster usage on the basis of height. Segregating concert area access for over and under 21 is a good idea. So is segregating smoking and nonsmoking areas in casinos.
 
FALSE:

It differed significantly from the requirements of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which required organizations only to document their practices once there was a preliminary finding of wrongdoing. The executive order required the businesses that were covered to maintain and furnish documentation of hiring and employment practices upon request.

Executive Order 11246 also required contractors with 51 or more employees and contracts of $50,000 or more to implement affirmative action plans to increase the participation of minorities and women in the workplace if a workforce analysis demonstrates their under-representation, meaning that there are fewer minorities and women than would be expected given the numbers of minorities and women qualified to hold the positions available.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11246#:~:text=Executive Order 11246, signed by,federal government hiring and employment.
That's not the same EO that arthwollipot referenced.
 
Republicans, in banning "divisive policies" (them meaning DEI and CRT), are Republicans aiming at being progressive?

I'm using the word "progressive" in the sense it had maybe 10 years ago before it became a scareword for Republicans.
 
The opposite of "progressive" is "conservative" but there's also another opposite: "regressive".

Some people when they oppose progressive causes want things to be conserved - to stay the same. Other people want them to go back to the way they were. You know, in the "Good Old Days". When men were men and women were in the kitchen and trans and gay people didn't exist.
 
The opposite of "progressive" is "conservative" but there's also another opposite: "regressive".

Some people when they oppose progressive causes want things to be conserved - to stay the same. Other people want them to go back to the way they were. You know, in the "Good Old Days". When men were men and women were in the kitchen and trans and gay people didn't exist.
A lot of the culture wars have been about 'identity politics'. The irony is that identity politics had to be created to get rights LGBTQI+. They either didn't exist, or, if they did, it was a crime to exist. Hence the need to identify as gay and not be ashamed to be gay, for example.
 
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The opposite of "progressive" is "conservative" but there's also another opposite: "regressive".
Neither of these are true.

The opposite of conservative is either liberal (in the context of politics) or aggressive (in the context of risk appetite).

The opposite of progressive is traditional - marked by a tendency to maintain the status quo.
 
This was a bit abrupt, yes, but my tolerance for what looks at first glance like a dishonest defense of something that was already on shaky ground is limited. Still, I don't actually like leaving it at that.


That's one way to take what was said. Not at all the most parsimonious, though, but rather a way that seems far more intent on manufacturing cause to dismiss than to actually address the concerns at hand.
Now sure, you can perhaps be very generous in your inference from Arth's post, but give the several others on related topics that they've made in this thread and others, all of which put forth the sentiment that the Trump administration is trying to roll back civil rights for black people and reinstitute abuses and discrimination on the basis of color, it's an entirely reasonable and likely interpretation for me to have made.

Okay. That's also a point that had been addressed in recent previous discussion, though. Republicans already have a history of gutting the CRA and immediately enacting things that the CRA would have prevented. Republicans also have a very current history of literally creating and forcing the use of illegally racially gerrymandered maps, among so very much more. That's before getting to the Trump Administration itself. The Republican Party has made it so that whole attempted direction of argument rests on a foundation of swamp mud. You don't like that your argument is deeply unconvincing? Blame the Republican Party.
Meh. Yes, gerrymandering is a stupid and self-serving practice. But the tendency of many people to insist that the gerrymandering is based on race alone, and is driven by racial animus, really misses the point. Gerrymandering occurs to increase the likelihood of people within that geographic footprint will vote for one party or another. It's done to maximize the likelihood of getting a stranglehold on votes. Republicans have certainly been guilty of it - but so have Democrats. Correlations with race are secondary, and result simply from the fact that in recent history, black people have generally been more likely to vote for Democrats than for Republicans.


I'm not Hercules56.
That's a very fair point.

Even if that may have been technically true, it is misleading on the subject when left at that, at best. It was very relevant to the overall subject at hand and trying to simply dismiss it out of hand like that smacks of dishonesty and a complete lack of interest in actually addressing the concerns in play.
It doesn't smack of dishonest at all when I was literally responding to Arth's post, which was literally addressing a single EO, and Arth was implying that racial segregation would rear its ugly head once more.
 
Neither of these are true.

The opposite of conservative is either liberal (in the context of politics) or aggressive (in the context of risk appetite).

The opposite of progressive is traditional - marked by a tendency to maintain the status quo.
So to answer my question, in cancelling DEI, are Republicans trying to be progressive, or traditional?
 
Now sure, you can perhaps be very generous in your inference from Arth's post, but give the several others on related topics that they've made in this thread and others, all of which put forth the sentiment that the Trump administration is trying to roll back civil rights for black people and reinstitute abuses and discrimination on the basis of color, it's an entirely reasonable and likely interpretation for me to have made.

That would be more reasonable if you hadn't chosen to invoke slavery in the previous iteration on the topic with even less cause to do so and used such to try to manufacture cause to dismiss the concerns in play. Unfortunately for that attempt, of course, slavery isn't at all something that can be treated as if it's confined to the history books and the Republican Party has, in fact, made moves to pave the way for people to be able to get away with such with obvious dogwhistling attached. Given that (and more), the Republican Party paving the way for lesser abuses should, in fact, be treated more as unsurprising and something to guard against rather than something to cheer on. If you're actually opposed to the abuses, at least.

Again, though, the more parsimonious reading of the quoted is the obvious. The Trump Administration is so opposed to the discrimination caused by DEI that they're actively working to remove safeguards against discriminatory conduct? That's just more evidence that anti-discrimination is not actually the goal of the anti-DEI push.

Meh. Yes, gerrymandering is a stupid and self-serving practice. But the tendency of many people to insist that the gerrymandering is based on race alone, and is driven by racial animus, really misses the point. Gerrymandering occurs to increase the likelihood of people within that geographic footprint will vote for one party or another. It's done to maximize the likelihood of getting a stranglehold on votes. Republicans have certainly been guilty of it - but so have Democrats. Correlations with race are secondary, and result simply from the fact that in recent history, black people have generally been more likely to vote for Democrats than for Republicans.

And... that's dodging. What you just said is true enough on its face, albeit with misleading bothsiderism and a downplaying of relevant supporting factors in practice, but the main problem with it is that it completely avoids the points made. Fundamentally, your argument relied upon blindly trusting in the protections offered by the CRA as if that settles the matter and nothing could possibly happen to the CRA. Unfortunately, Republicans have already gutted the CRA, immediately exploited the gaps they created, and have continued to work to gut it more and more. It's utterly unreasonable to try to demand that we ignore that. You say that we should blindly trust the Trump Administration and Republicans to uphold the law in general, much less the CRA? Their brazenly and shamelessly illegal flouting of such clearly demonstrates that we cannot trust them to do so and that it's utterly unreasonable to demand that we do so. Once more, the foundation that you're trying to build on is swamp mud, and the only people you actually have to blame for that are those of the Republican Party.

It doesn't smack of dishonest at all when I was literally responding to Arth's post, which was literally addressing a single EO, and Arth was implying that racial segregation would rear its ugly head once more.

It does when you keep dodging the actual concerns being invoked, especially when you're trying to improperly isolate things out of the context that they're happening in. Noting that Hercules56 pointed to a different thing isn't necessarily wrong in and of itself, of course, but whether or not that's true, what he added to the conversation was entirely relevant to the topic at hand and what you did served as nothing more than an empty dismissal attempt of that.
 
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I have moved the posts about due process for non citizens to


Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob
 
Another casualty of the attack on DEI -

Trump Pulls Research Funding To Protect Pregnant Women From Domestic Violence, Citing ‘DEI’
Homicide by an abusive partner is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the U.S. – and researchers are gutted by the sudden cuts.

Gathering information about the #1 cause of death for pregnant women to better inform what, if any, action can be reasonably taken and hopefully save many lives, both of the mother and the potential child? DEI!
It's getting worse. It appears now that anything that is gender-specific is assumed to be unacceptable DEI, thus anything health-related that relates to women faces the axe. Uterine fibroids? DEI! To hell with them. An amusingly stupid and upside-down action from what are so often the same people who so adamantly maintain that there is an ineradicable difference between the sexes that pervades our lives. In the upcoming trumpverse, it's men all the way down. Now I assume that any research involving illness with a racial or ethnic component will also be axed soon enough. We wasp men don't get sickle cell anemia or tay sachs disease so off with them as well.

Next up, eye color and handedness. Who needs diversity anyway?
 
It's getting worse. It appears now that anything that is gender-specific is assumed to be unacceptable DEI, thus anything health-related that relates to women faces the axe. Uterine fibroids? DEI! To hell with them. An amusingly stupid and upside-down action from what are so often the same people who so adamantly maintain that there is an ineradicable difference between the sexes that pervades our lives. In the upcoming trumpverse, it's men all the way down. Now I assume that any research involving illness with a racial or ethnic component will also be axed soon enough. We wasp men don't get sickle cell anemia or tay sachs disease so off with them as well.

Next up, eye color and handedness. Who needs diversity anyway?
The grant wasn't cancelled because of what it was studying, but because its purpose was "training a diverse cohort of new investigators" in order "to promote diversity within the next generation of maternal health scientists" [source: grant abstract]. In plain English, the grant was to train minority researchers. It's racial discrimination couched in the language of "diversity," possibly in violation of federal civil rights law and definitely in violation of Trump's executive orders banning racial preferences throughout the federal government and federally funded programs.
 
The grant wasn't cancelled because of what it was studying, but because its purpose was "training a diverse cohort of new investigators" in order "to promote diversity within the next generation of maternal health scientists" [source: grant abstract]. In plain English, the grant was to train minority researchers. It's racial discrimination couched in the language of "diversity," possibly in violation of federal civil rights law and definitely in violation of Trump's executive orders banning racial preferences throughout the federal government and federally funded programs.
Was there any actual evidence of racial discrimination or was it simply assumed?

My money is on simple assumption.
 
So to answer my question, in cancelling DEI, are Republicans trying to be progressive, or traditional?
Crazy as it sounds, I think most of them (not all) are trying to be classically liberal. I think most of the objection to DEI programs are coming from a real appreciation for Rev. King's ideal of judging people on the content of their character.
 
That would be more reasonable if you hadn't chosen to invoke slavery in the previous iteration on the topic with even less cause to do so and used such to try to manufacture cause to dismiss the concerns in play. Unfortunately for that attempt, of course, slavery isn't at all something that can be treated as if it's confined to the history books and the Republican Party has, in fact, made moves to pave the way for people to be able to get away with such with obvious dogwhistling attached. Given that (and more), the Republican Party paving the way for lesser abuses should, in fact, be treated more as unsurprising and something to guard against rather than something to cheer on. If you're actually opposed to the abuses, at least.
Can you elaborate on what exactly the Republican Party has done that you believe paves the way for slavery to make a come-back?
And... that's dodging. What you just said is true enough on its face, albeit with misleading bothsiderism and a downplaying of relevant supporting factors in practice, but the main problem with it is that it completely avoids the points made. Fundamentally, your argument relied upon blindly trusting in the protections offered by the CRA as if that settles the matter and nothing could possibly happen to the CRA. Unfortunately, Republicans have already gutted the CRA, immediately exploited the gaps they created, and have continued to work to gut it more and more. It's utterly unreasonable to try to demand that we ignore that. You say that we should blindly trust the Trump Administration and Republicans to uphold the law in general, much less the CRA? Their brazenly and shamelessly illegal flouting of such clearly demonstrates that we cannot trust them to do so and that it's utterly unreasonable to demand that we do so. Once more, the foundation that you're trying to build on is swamp mud, and the only people you actually have to blame for that are those of the Republican Party.
Can you elaborate on how the Republicans have gutted the CRA? In what way has the CRA been shamelessly flouted?
 

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