No, that would only make us all believe there was some entity that could change some people's favourite colour. The change I'm talking about is that we would all believe that the entity messing with our minds is god.
What would "god" need to do in order to prove that she really existed?
- Thread starter AmyStrange
- Start date
I agree the change you're talking about would certainly engender more belief, but my point is that it would not provide any higher level of evidence or proof.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Is providing a higher level of evidence or proof part of the assignment, though?
Or maybe we just need to acknowledge Darat's clever end-run around the spirit of the question, give him credit for a really good answer, and move on to other answers that are more in keeping with the spirit of evidence or proof of god.
AmyStrange
Philosopher
Although I admit, Darat's answer was clever, the question wasn't what would convince everyone that god existed, the question was, "What would PERSONNALLY CONVINCE YOU that god existed.
After all, this thread is NOT a contest for the best answer.
There are many other ways I could be convinced and most of them aren't as high level as Darat's... hell, there are many people out there who believe in god just by reading the bible.
The biggest problem I have with Darat's answer is how would Darat know that EVERYONE believed in the same god or would all of Darat's friends and family believing be enough?
IMO, the answer to that would be the BETTER answer. For example: if god made Darat BELIEVE that everyone believed in the same god would be a better answer, but like I said, this isn't a contest for the best answer, no matter how much Darat believes it is.
-
Last edited:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
And that's the question Darat answered. Beyond that, he (correctly, in my opinion) noted that God could apply the same approach to everyone else.
ETA: The biggest problem you have with Darat's answer is that you don't understand what he's saying. He's saying that God making him personally believe would make him personally believe. He's NOT saying that God making everyone else personally believe would make him believe.
He IS saying that God could make each of us personally believe, and that would make us each personally believe.
AmyStrange
Philosopher
Nope, I understand what Darat is saying, and I agree with Darat. It would convince me too, but other ways would convince me also.
After all, this not a contest for the BEST answer, even though (IMO) Darat seems to think it is.
-
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
If you understand what Darat is saying, why do you keep misrepresenting it?
AmyStrange
Philosopher
I stand corrected, and obviously, I didn't explain myself very well.
How Darat would believe isn't my issue. I just don't believe that Darat's way is the best way or the only way.
After all (like I keep posting), THIS IS NOT A CONTEST to find the BEST ANSWER.
-
stanfr
Illuminator
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,900
I don't have time to read the whole thread, but as per the question, off the top of my head since Lazarus was probably the best 'miracle' of the NT, I'd say bring my deceased mother into the room (along with a psychiatrist to verify that I was sane) in the flesh and let me have a discussion with her. Presumably others here have made excuses like 'but that would not prove god or it could be aliens yadda yadda, but for me that would be good enough.
Or maybe she could just convert Trump into an actual Christian, and he would immediately divest his entire wealth to the poor, and sentence himself to life without parole for his many crimes against humanity. That would be sufficient as well...
Or maybe she could just convert Trump into an actual Christian, and he would immediately divest his entire wealth to the poor, and sentence himself to life without parole for his many crimes against humanity. That would be sufficient as well...
AmyStrange
Philosopher
Exactly and thank you.
That's a legitimate answer, and not just because I also wrote the exact same kind of thing in an earlier post.
Any answer to the question, "What would prove to you PERSONALLY that she existed," would be legitimate in my mind, even if it was that Bigfoot would run for president and win.
In my OP, I also didn't include any requirement that others would have to be convinced too.
All it would have to convince is just you.
So, once again, thank you.
-
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
On second thoughts, nevermind.
Last edited:
AmyStrange
Philosopher
Sigh, I agree with Darat's answer, but I don't think it's the best or only answer.
If you consider that criticism, then I don't know what I can do to debunk your criticism of me personally.
As a matter of fact, here is a better answer if you want to go that route:
A better answer (that wouldn't require anyone to lose their free will) would be to kill everyone and put them in front of the gates of heaven and then begin judging them.
Without free will, Darat, you, I, or anyone would be no better than brainwashed, mindless sheep that the maga weirdoes are right now.
-
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Um...
AmyStrange
Philosopher
AmyStrange
Philosopher
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
In part, my answer would be simple: the same thing anyone would have to do to convince me that they exist: come and talk to me. If some dude appears to me in person, shakes my hand, and talks to me, I am of course going to think that said dude exists.
Want me to believe that you can do weird and wonderful things, like raise the dead or wreathe the moon in green flame? Show me.
Want me to believe that you are wise and knowledgeable? Establish the appropriate resume.
As to the claim that you are *God*? That's a bit trickier, because some aspects of that probably aren't verifiable. How would you go about proving that you created the universe? Or that you rule heaven and hell? You might show me that stuff in a vision, but that would only prove your ability to instill visions.
But: baby steps. First, let's establish that there even is a *person* who wants me to think that they're God (which is typically an element of the claim, after all), and is even a remotely plausible candidate for that title. Then we can move on to the other stuff.
Want me to believe that you can do weird and wonderful things, like raise the dead or wreathe the moon in green flame? Show me.
Want me to believe that you are wise and knowledgeable? Establish the appropriate resume.
As to the claim that you are *God*? That's a bit trickier, because some aspects of that probably aren't verifiable. How would you go about proving that you created the universe? Or that you rule heaven and hell? You might show me that stuff in a vision, but that would only prove your ability to instill visions.
But: baby steps. First, let's establish that there even is a *person* who wants me to think that they're God (which is typically an element of the claim, after all), and is even a remotely plausible candidate for that title. Then we can move on to the other stuff.
sphenisc
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2004
- Messages
- 6,233
I'd have thought in your case the massive crocodile head would be important?
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
And the funny lisp.
Chanakya
,
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2015
- Messages
- 5,811
I've answered this question many times throughout this thread, but I know how hard it is to actually read a long one before posting, so once again:
I'm mostly talking about ALL gods and
not any specific one, IOW, what would (
any god) need to do to prove (to you personally) that she was the real deal?
My definition of god is that she doesn't give a rat's a*** what bible or religion you follow as long as you follow the Golden Rule.
I've also answered multiple times why I don't think god is a male (or even a female really)., and the answer to why I think god is a she is, "Why not?"
I actually think if she exist, it's like what Julian of Norwich felt in her Revelations of Divine Love, and that god has both the spirit of a man and women in them.
-
Well then, in that case it's like I said, in my post back when.
If you're not going to define God yourself, and leave people to define God as they like: well then, there's folks there who actually think God is all of nature, or that God is all of the universe.
(For instance, there's this guy: https://steve-patterson.com/understanding-god-as-nature-or-the-universe/
...And I've seen this sort of thing in New Age books as well, I mean specifically where God is defined as the Universe, or as nature.)
So, if you're working with that kind of a definition of God personally, when then God doesn't have to do anything at all. It already exists, evidently so. You already believe. Everybody already believes, given that definition.
So that, like I was saying, way back upthread: The simplest way to do what you're looking for is what Darat's suggested. Provided you don't insist on the not fiddling with free will caveat. ...And an equally straightforward way to do what you're asking for, is to simply define God in such a way that its existence becomes an incontestable thing. And this doesn't even require any diddling with people's free will*.
*Well, working with the religious idea of free will. I personally don't think free will exists, but that's completely irrelevant to this exchange and off-topic for this thread.
-----
eta:
What I've suggested ties in with the idea of igtheism or ignosticism. Essentially, God is a meaningless word, because it's such an open idea. Not just in terms of philosophical wanking, but actually --- provided one is able to move one's reference point beyond one's narrow tribe. If you look around the world, at different cultures, different God-ideas, then you'll see a huge diversity in what the term "God" even means. So that, to even ask the question, "Do you believe in God?", or, as you do, "What can God do to make you believe in Him", is a completely meaningless exercise, unless you first clearly define what exactly you mean by God. When you don't explicitly define God, then nine times out of ten, you're working with some implicit definition of God --- just as, in this thread, most people are implicitly working with the Judeo-Christian idea of God. Bring in pagan gods, and you'll need different parameters to make people believe in that pagan god. And bring in God-as-existence, or God-as-nature, or God-as-the-Universe, and you'll need to do nothing at all to make people believe in God.
Last edited: