Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

good memory.

i dont know how old you are but i think in many ways the internet we grew up with was a lot more innocent and friendly than the one that exists now. i think that’s pretty scary for people growing up with it now.

...indeed...and how bad will it get...I assume there will be a big push for lowering the age of consent; indeed it's happening as we speak - why else would society be okay with content suggesting such sexual activity.

 

[Darat]

...indeed...and how bad will it get...I assume there will be a big push for lowering the age of consent; indeed it's happening as we speak - why else would society be okay with content suggesting such sexual activity.

Yet not in the UK, there is no one or organisation of consequence that I know is pushing for a lowering of the age of consent (yes I am sure you can find someone somewhere saying it should be lower).

 

[Poem]

Yet not in the UK, there is no one or organisation of consequence that I know is pushing for a lowering of the age of consent (yes I am sure you can find someone somewhere saying it should be lower).

Maybe...that we know of...but the reality is that such content is all over mainstream. To suggest that UK society isn't into it is fanciful.

 

[Poem]

................................................

#567

 

[Darat]

Statements about the efficacy or otherwise of the OSB are pretty much just speculation.



I posted:





You replied:





Which of the two posts, taking into account the Barnardo's statement, is the current reality?



Your first statement needs some amending does it not? A society of that mindset would not put up with the status quo.

The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.

 

[Darat]

I'm with you in principle. Now let's talk practice.



At what age should children have a smartphone? Should those smart phones have internet access? If so, should parents be expected to monitor their children's phone usage constantly?



Things have changed from what they were when we were kids. Young kids of days gone used to have to sneak into their parents/relatives/neighbors bedrooms and find the hidden porn in order to get their thrills. That created a meaningful barrier, and severely limited both the volume and the type of porn they could find. Most people didn't have extreme bondage incest choking porn in their homes, and if they did it was hidden away well enough to make it virtually inaccessible to kids. It would have been extremely rare for a kid to ever be exposed to anything like that before the advent of internet enabled smartphones.



Now, however... it's all available, in all it's rule 34 glory, readily accessible to anyone with a phone, no matter their age.



Saying "Parents should parent better", while not wrong by any means, is sort of sidestepping the practical implications of modern life.

Until 16 kids should have no access to a non-curated Internet. I would now ban unlocked down smartphones for kids.

 

[Poem]

The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.

Am I missing something here? You say society prosecutes....and yet it's rife all over the net. Emperor's Clothes?

Which bit of NCOSE's statement is wrong here:

Even so, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) refuses to enforce existing federal obscenity laws. From the time Obama took office in 2008, no enforcement actions against illegal obscenity have been initiated by DOJ, and in 2011 former Attorney General Eric Holder dismantled the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force.


You think it's totally different in the UK?

 

[Darat]

Am I missing something here? You say society prosecutes....and yet it's rife all over the net. Emperor's Clothes?

Which bit of NCOSE's statement is wrong here:

Even so, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) refuses to enforce existing federal obscenity laws. From the time Obama took office in 2008, no enforcement actions against illegal obscenity have been initiated by DOJ, and in 2011 former Attorney General Eric Holder dismantled the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force.


You think it's totally different in the UK?

No idea. In the UK whilst pornography is legal, pornography that involves anyone under the age of 18, or pornography suggesting sexual activity with children regardless of the age of the people involved is illegal (ETA: note this also includes the likes of animated content). Producing (in any capacity) such illegal content is also illegal in the UK, distributing such content is illegal in the UK, consuming such content is illegal in the UK.

UK society has decided to have some of the toughest sentences in our justice system for those that produce and/or distribute such content and also those that consume such content.

ETA: https://ukcareguide.co.uk/what-is-illegal-to-watch-on-the-internet-in-the-uk/

… Child Sexual Abuse Material

Unquestionably, one of the most heinous types of illegal content involves child sexual abuse. This content contains graphic depictions of children or any sexual activity involving children. Viewing, disseminating, or creating such content is prohibited by UK law.

According to the Internet Watch Foundation, thousands of images of child sex abuse are taken down from the internet each week. This demonstrates the severity of the problem.

Law enforcement organisations like the West Mercia Police put great effort into identifying and bringing charges against those who view, distribute, or create such content. They also collaborate with internet service providers to prevent access to these images.

To address this problem, the UK government has also passed strict laws. A severe criminal investigation may be conducted if child sexual abuse material is viewed, distributed, or produced.…

 

[Roger Ramjets]

No idea. In the UK whilst pornography is legal, pornography that involves anyone under the age of 18, or pornography suggesting sexual activity with children regardless of the age of the people involved is illegal (ETA: note this also includes the likes of animated content).

The Coroners and Justice Act 2009 made cartoon sexual images depicting minors a criminal offense. Then something peculiar happened:-

The number of recorded rapes in England and Wales increased dramatically. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[porch]

NCOSE (Nation Centre On Sexual Exploitation):

Most people are shocked to discover that Federal law prohibits the distribution of obscene adult pornography on the Internet, on cable/satellite TV, on hotel/motel TV, in retail shops, through the mail, and by common carrier. The U.S. Supreme Court has also repeatedly upheld obscenity laws against First Amendment challenges, explaining that obscenity is not protected speech. Even so, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) refuses to enforce existing federal obscenity laws. From the time Obama took office in 2008, no enforcement actions against illegal obscenity have been initiated by DOJ, and in 2011 former Attorney General Eric Holder dismantled the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force. All girls, boys, women, and men have a natural human dignity and thus a right to live lives free from sexual exploitation. All pornography is degrading, dehumanizing, exploitive, and a violation of this right. All pornography is a serial attack on human dignity, identity and worth. NCOSE exists to make society aware of pornography’s many harms, to equip individuals and families to overcome and protect against those harms, and to advocate that all laws defending the right to be free from pornography are vigorously enforced. Our nation is now suffering from an emerging public health crisis fuelled by the widespread distribution of adult, hardcore pornography, and the Department of Justice bears a great burden of responsibility for this crisis.

Rape culture? Sure it is...and all with the complicity of the DOJ. Civilized society? Clearly not.

Regarding the part I bolded: That's an extreme philosophy that goes way beyond "thinking of the children", in either sense of the phrase.

 

[Ziggurat]

Am I missing something here? You say society prosecutes....and yet it's rife all over the net. Emperor's Clothes?

Which bit of NCOSE's statement is wrong here:

Even so, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) refuses to enforce existing federal obscenity laws. From the time Obama took office in 2008, no enforcement actions against illegal obscenity have been initiated by DOJ, and in 2011 former Attorney General Eric Holder dismantled the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force.


You think it's totally different in the UK?

Child pornography is a different offense than obscenity. The reason to dismantle the obscenity prosecution task for is that it's basically impossible to successfully prosecute someone for obscenity (in terms of porn), because such attempts usually run face first into the first amendment, so it's a waste of resources. But child pornography prosecutions do not have this problem. The FBI has not stopped investigating child pornography. The have not stopped prosecuting child pornography. They have not stopped convicting and jailing people for child pornography.

 

[Checkmite]

#540 says otherwise.

Are you okay with the fact that content suggesting sexual activity with children is rife on mainstream pornography sites? Not just showing up in dark corners - but 'rife'.

No; that would be one of the popular trends I just mentioned being concerned about.

 

[Poem]

No; that would be one of the popular trends I just mentioned being concerned about.

Where does that leave the assertion: No, porn is not inherently bad?

 

[zooterkin]

The Coroners and Justice Act 2009 made cartoon sexual images depicting minors a criminal offense. Then something peculiar happened:-

[qimg]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1476&pictureid=14076[/qimg]
The number of recorded rapes in England and Wales increased dramatically. Coincidence? I think not.

I sincerely hope you're joking.

The more likely explanation is that there was a deliberate attempt to treat accusations of rape much more seriously, leading to more victims being prepared to come forward as they saw a rise in the rate of convictions.

See this article from 2013, mentioning some chap called Keir Starmer, about the topic. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/23/rape-conviction-rate-high

 

[Checkmite]

Where does that leave the assertion: No, porn is not inherently bad?

No change.

Perhaps I need to spell this out more plainly:

Porn that includes concerning trends such as the suggested sexualization of minors and men choking their female partners, is bad.

Porn that does not include those things, is not bad.

 

[Poem]

No idea. In the UK whilst pornography is legal, pornography that involves anyone under the age of 18, or pornography suggesting sexual activity with children regardless of the age of the people involved is illegal (ETA: note this also includes the likes of animated content). Producing (in any capacity) such illegal content is also illegal in the UK, distributing such content is illegal in the UK, consuming such content is illegal in the UK.

UK society has decided to have some of the toughest sentences in our justice system for those that produce and/or distribute such content and also those that consume such content.

ETA: https://ukcareguide.co.uk/what-is-illegal-to-watch-on-the-internet-in-the-uk/

Yes, it's illegal but it is still rife on mainstream porn sites.

According to the NSPCC, there has been an 82% rise in online grooming crimes in the five years to 2023. Here's James Treadwell - criminologist and author:

The NSPCC figures are staggering...the tip of an iceberg...we prosecute a tiny number. CEOP (Child exploitation and online protection command) say that at any given moment there are somewhere between 600.000 and 800,000 persons accessing CSEM (Child sexual exploitation material) in the UK. We don't have enough police.

There are currently about 100 vigilante groups in the UK dedicated to catching paedophiles. Here's Jo Jones of 'Guardians of the North':

Where are the police...not enough money is put into cyber crime units...the police are not doing what they need to...they don't consider our work a priority.

Treadwell on why so many are seeking out children for sexual activity:

Only a fraction come to our attention...we don't catch a lot of people...the formation of deviant sexual fantasy starts in teen years...is reinforced with masturbation which is also where the link to CSEM is...I'm cautious - there's a debate between thinking and doing...anyone who is accessing that sort of material is showing a propensity towards it...may move into that stage of actually doing...acting out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR1PxS9ZSLs

I'll ask again - why don't we immediately shut down mainstream porn cites that are rife with material that suggests sexual activity with children?

I'll remind readers that Bernardo's called for immediate action TWO years ago.

 

[Poem]

No change.

Perhaps I need to spell this out more plainly:

Porn that includes concerning trends such as the suggested sexualization of minors and men choking their female partners, is bad.

Porn that does not include those things, is not bad.

Since mainstream porn is reflective of where society is in terms of their sexual proclivities, then I'd say your argument is academic. Porn suggesting activity with children is de facto normalized.

 

[Poem]

Child pornography is a different offense than obscenity. The reason to dismantle the obscenity prosecution task for is that it's basically impossible to successfully prosecute someone for obscenity (in terms of porn), because such attempts usually run face first into the first amendment, so it's a waste of resources. But child pornography prosecutions do not have this problem. The FBI has not stopped investigating child pornography. The have not stopped prosecuting child pornography. They have not stopped convicting and jailing people for child pornography.

The reality in the UK is that such prosecutions aren't happening nearly enough #616. I'd be surprised if the US was any different.

 

[Poem]

I sincerely hope you're joking.

The more likely explanation is that there was a deliberate attempt to treat accusations of rape much more seriously, leading to more victims being prepared to come forward as they saw a rise in the rate of convictions.

See this article from 2013, mentioning some chap called Keir Starmer, about the topic. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/23/rape-conviction-rate-high

The conviction rate is somewhere under 2% in the UK and similar in other western countries.

 

[Darat]

Yes, it's illegal but it is still rife on mainstream porn sites.

According to the NSPCC, there has been an 82% rise in online grooming crimes in the five years to 2023. Here's James Treadwell - criminologist and author:

There are currently about 100 vigilante groups in the UK dedicated to catching paedophiles. Here's Jo Jones of 'Guardians of the North':

Treadwell on why so many are seeking out children for sexual activity:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR1PxS9ZSLs

I'll ask again - why don't we immediately shut down mainstream porn cites that are rife with material that suggests sexual activity with children?

I'll remind readers that Bernardo's called for immediate action TWO years ago.

How?