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Why not hanging for carrying out the death penalty?

I feel stupid posting this, because I’m sure I just missed the link, but the AMA does explain its position on executions:

https://code-medical-ethics.ama-assn.org/ethics-opinions/capital-punishment

Eta: they also lay out their position on Torture, which is nice:

https://code-medical-ethics.ama-assn.org/ethics-opinions/torture

Does the AMA prescribe an optimal or least harmful method of execution? Do they provide a framework for developing an execution method they could endorse?

ETA: I ask in the interest of returning to the topic of the thread.
 
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Which was the point I was making. They don't rely at all on Do No Harm. They rely on being in a profession which is dedicated to preserving life when there is hope of doing so, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

I wonder if one could sum up this humanitarian principle in a pithy aphorism that immediately tells you on what side of the question someone's ethics can be found.

And then I wonder if one, whether subscribing to the pithy aphorism or just the ethical principle it expresses, might return to the topic of methods of execution of least harm.
 
I wonder if one could sum up this humanitarian principle in a pithy aphorism that immediately tells you on what side of the question someone's ethics can be found.

One has no opinion on that. Or more accurately, one does not like pithy aphorisms that get treated literally.

And then I wonder if one, whether subscribing to the pithy aphorism or just the ethical principle it expresses, might return to the topic of methods of execution of least harm.

I thought the discussion was supposed to be about the simpler/ more efficient means of execution? The harm.is pretty much a given.
 
I feel stupid posting this, because I’m sure I just missed the link, but the AMA does explain its position on executions:

https://code-medical-ethics.ama-assn.org/ethics-opinions/capital-punishment

Eta: they also lay out their position on Torture, which is nice:

https://code-medical-ethics.ama-assn.org/ethics-opinions/torture


That makes their position crystal clear, thanks for posting.

(Well, not the details of it. Doesn't stipulate that doing this will cost a doctor his licence. But that might well follow, given these very clear guidelines.)


Interesting that the ethical concerns of a professional body is allowed to go against direct legal mandate. Wonder if this has ever actually been challenged in a court of law.


I like their stand on torture, clearly calling it out as vile and barbaric. Wish they'd done the same for executions as well. ...Still, what they do have, in terms of clear guidelines , is admirable.
 
This larger discussion will probably be off-topic --- and maybe I'll start a thread, later when I'm free --- but I wonder what other professions have this kind of extra-legal ethical angle, and what exactly the legal standing of this sort of thing is.

I mean, these are four different things. One, some doctor personally deciding he won't involve himself in taking life. Two, an association putting out general guidelines like these, just non-enforceable guidelines. Three, enforcing those guidelines on pain of revoking membership, when the membership mainly means dinners, dances, networking, and informal recognition. And four, enforcing them by taking away the man's licence, and his right to practice his profession. Four very different things. And the last particularly, I do wonder if it might hold up in a court of law.

I suppose an equivalent would be the confessional thing. Regardless of my opinion on the specifics --- which is that medicine is a bona fide profession with real ethics, while priesting away is nonsensical cosplay and charlatanry and exactly the opposite of ethical --- but regardless, again, it's one thing for a priest to take his vows seriously and not divulge details about somone who's confessed to a crime to the police, and a very different thing for the church to forbid him to do that on pain of defrocking him and losing his career. (Although does the church only licence priests, or are they more like employees? If the latter, then that might be a separate, fifth, category.)
 
That makes their position crystal clear, thanks for posting.

(Well, not the details of it. Doesn't stipulate that doing this will cost a doctor his licence. But that might well follow, given these very clear guidelines.)


Interesting that the ethical concerns of a professional body is allowed to go against direct legal mandate. Wonder if this has ever actually been challenged in a court of law.


I like their stand on torture, clearly calling it out as vile and barbaric. Wish they'd done the same for executions as well. ...Still, what they do have, in terms of clear guidelines , is admirable.

It doesn’t go against a legal mandate. There is no legal mandate that doctors must participate in executions. It is legal for them to do so, but it is not mandated.

Many professional organizations have ethical standards that are more limiting than legal standards that apply to non-professionals. That is one of the main rationales for professional organizations.
 
I wonder if one could sum up this humanitarian principle in a pithy aphorism that immediately tells you on what side of the question someone's ethics can be found.

And then I wonder if one, whether subscribing to the pithy aphorism or just the ethical principle it expresses, might return to the topic of methods of execution of least harm.
I think the question of least harm can be addressed without regard to whether or not one opposes execution itself. I have various reasons for being against execution, but I don't think that makes it impossible to speculate on how it might best be done when it is. It's all theoretical anyway.

But I don't think it can be addressed without regard to the more complicated question of what various people consider to be, or not to be, the difference between punishment and elimination. An execution is inherently fatal, and almost inevitably stressful, but the method of doing it is seriously dependent on requirements that are difficult to reconcile, the requirement of punishment and conscious awareness of it while it happens, and the desire to make it humane and not too gruesome.

I think there are also some issues which nobody can answer unless we find a way for dead people to report back, among them the question of whether a short and very intense pain is better or worse than a less intense pain over a longer period.

It would, after all, be pretty quick and effective to use a sharp guillotine. Arguments about former times in which the blade got dull are hardly relevant, since even in bloody Texas they would have time to sharpen it and clean it up between uses. We slaughter cows with a pneumatic bolt that is quick and certain, and plenty of tyrants and soldiers have discovered that a good sized pistol to the back of the head is pretty effective as well. I'm guessing, though I hope I never find out, that this is intensely painful for a very short while, but it's obviously over pretty quickly. And we euthanize pets in a manner that appears to be painless, though of course they have the advantage of not understanding what is to come.

I think if you decide execution is appropriate, and if you then decide that the point of execution is simply to remove an incorrigible person from the earth, it can be done with reasonable alacrity and a minimum of fuss and prolonged agony. But there is no way it will not be fatal, no way it will not be a dreadful prospect for the person being executed, and what constitutes "instantaneous" is debatable. Demanding that it be done with some imagined veneer of dignity, consciousness, or last minute repentance complicates it, as do issues of whether there is an afterlife. Or, to borrow once again the wise words of Tuco the ugly, "If you need to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
 
It doesn’t go against a legal mandate. There is no legal mandate that doctors must participate in executions. It is legal for them to do so, but it is not mandated.

Many professional organizations have ethical standards that are more limiting than legal standards that apply to non-professionals. That is one of the main rationales for professional organizations.


Not to derail this thread any further, maybe we could take this here:
https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14253068#post14253068
 
Major props for a Tuco reference, bruto. And agreed on all points, with the enhancement that if we are concerned about needless suffering, knock the condemned out prior to execution. If we can perform brain operations on patients who are under anesthesia and they don't report feeling pain, surely we can do the same with a condemned man before obliterating that medulla oblongata?
 
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When execution is in private and it is quick, such as hanging, that is done in a society which places more emphasis on law and order and civility, such as the UK, when it still had the death penalty in the C20th.
... But NOT the UK prior to the C20th...

UK engaged in some pretty barbaric forms of public execution for a really, really long time.
 
I think the best (and most expensive) execution method would be to "exile" them from Planet Earth. Basically, you just strap them into a rocket, give them a limited air supply so they can enjoy the ride for a while, and send them off into outer space.

If they survive by having aliens pick them up, well, I guess the aliens can decide what to do with them... they're just exiles, we don't demand that they die. Of course, I won't speculate on what the chances of that happening might be.

Bonus points if they hit the sun, but I think the direction should be properly randomized (but definitely not orbital). And for the sake of economy, you can probably send multiple in one go. Maybe they can even make one last friend on the way to ease the panic.

Of course, the problem is that perhaps some people might be willing to kill for the opportunity to die this way. Not me, but some people are weird... especially murderers.
 
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Nitrogen gas is often used to euthanize animals and can be observed to be painless and fairly quick. It's not at all like suffocation because there is no buildup of co2 to trigger a drowning or suffocating response. Here is a video from Germany where a pig is euthanized.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqaPZR4M22w


Personally if I had to be executed I would rather be beheaded, it's pretty much instantaneous, just too messy for onlookers.
 
Personally if I had to be executed I would rather be beheaded, it's pretty much instantaneous, just too messy for onlookers.

You know... it is possible to sever the entire spinal column without taking the head completely off. I wonder why nobody has ever thought of that. It would pretty much accomplish the exact same thing, minus the blood spurting from your severed carotid arteries. Could be more gruesome in a way, though. Might depend on how you do it.

Personally, though, I'm fairly certain that there's no method of killing a person that I wouldn't find a bit disturbing.
 
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Nitrogen gas is often used to euthanize animals and can be observed to be painless and fairly quick. It's not at all like suffocation because there is no buildup of co2 to trigger a drowning or suffocating response. Here is a video from Germany where a pig is euthanized.

Because animals don't know they are being killed and don't do stuff like try to hold their breath or fight the process.

Again there is functionally a difference on a procedural level between killing an animal at the pound and executing a human; awareness of the process.

That's why I said earlier for something to be a humane execution (again as that concept is being discussed in this thread and only in that context) you can't depend on the person being executed to be an active participant in it, and yes that even includes such basic stuff as "voluntarily breathing."

For an execution to be humane in the context being discussed the condemned is, in my opinion, going to have to be a completely, and I mean COMPLETELY passive participant in the process. You can't "count" on them to be a key step in their own death. Even if the person has "made peace with it" there is still a chance they will fight "the process" when the moment comes.

A person can hold their breath and take shallow, panicked breathes and therefore make death by inhalation take longer and be more painful. You can't tense your neck really hard against the guillotine or concentrate really hard and close off your veins and try to keep the lethal injection chemicals out of your blood stream and have it matter. The firing squad bullet is going to hit your heart or not regardless of anything you do. You can't do anything (in the moment) to make the electricity from Ole' Sparky more or less effective and moving through your body.
 
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You know... it is possible to sever the entire spinal column without taking the head completely off. I wonder why nobody has ever thought of that. It would pretty much accomplish the exact same thing, minus the blood spurting from your severed carotid arteries. Could be more gruesome in a way, though. Might depend on how you do it.

Personally, though, I'm fairly certain that there's no method of killing a person that I wouldn't find a bit disturbing.

This is just the pell/pole axe method used to cull animals. The 'pell' or 'pole' is a blunt square or cylinder bit on the back of an axe. It is driven either into the front of the skull, comprehensively destroying the brain, or on the back of the neck resulting in internal decapitation.

There is some confusion because 'poleaxe' is often thought to refer to the fighting axe that is on a pole. It's actually called that because it usually has a pole on the back of the axe, as opposed to polearms as a whole which really are called that because they are on poles. This is even more confusing because 'pole' as in a 'a long cylinder' is also the origin of the long blunt cylinder on the back of a poleaxe.

English can be confusing.
 
This is just the pell/pole axe method used to cull animals. The 'pell' or 'pole' is a blunt square or cylinder bit on the back of an axe. It is driven either into the front of the skull, comprehensively destroying the brain, or on the back of the neck resulting in internal decapitation.

There is some confusion because 'poleaxe' is often thought to refer to the fighting axe that is on a pole. It's actually called that because it usually has a pole on the back of the axe, as opposed to polearms as a whole which really are called that because they are on poles. This is even more confusing because 'pole' as in a 'a long cylinder' is also the origin of the long blunt cylinder on the back of a poleaxe.

English can be confusing.

Believe it or not, I briefly worked in a beef processing plant where just such a contraption was used. Ours used the top-of-the-skull method, though. They were often still jiggling around a bit when the next guy slit their throats to let the blood out, but we were assured that they were definitely already dead.
 
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You know... it is possible to sever the entire spinal column without taking the head completely off. I wonder why nobody has ever thought of that. It would pretty much accomplish the exact same thing, minus the blood spurting from your severed carotid arteries. Could be more gruesome in a way, though. Might depend on how you do it.

Personally, though, I'm fairly certain that there's no method of killing a person that I wouldn't find a bit disturbing.
Should be easy enough to do with a pair of loppers like you would use to trim branches. It seems very personal though , I would hate to be the one to do it.
 

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