Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

That is why I asked my questions, she has no idea how they work. She thinks that immersion activated buoys toggle the same switch that is used for manual activation.

You can find out for yourself how they work, here:

https://beacons.amsa.gov.au/about/float-free-epirbs.asp

 

[Steve]

It is abundantly clear to everyone here, bar one, exactly how they work.

 

[Vixen]

I think that the problem Vixen might be having is that she doesn't understand that the phrase "switched off" doesn't necessarily mean that someone has at some point in time toggled the switch from the "on position" to the "off position", but can in fact mean that the switch has never been toggled to the "on position".

In other words, when it is reported that the buoys were found to be switched off it means that they had never been activated, not that they had been activated and then deactivated.

Here's the thing. This is a busy passenger ferry. Usual crew and staff. The EPIRBS were affixed one each side of the bridge in a float-free bracket with a Hydrostatic Release Unit. As one might expect with a big ship carrying up to 1,500 people, regular standard inspections are carried out. MV Estonia had her buoys inspected as being in full working order by the ships electricians and there is a log of it. The HRU unit is triggered when immersed in up to 4m of water, hence one on either side of the ship depending on which side it capsizes. To avoid the possibility of a false alarm being sent (for example hooligans or for battery saving) they are switched off if in port for a longer period than a few days, for maintenance or whatever. The fact the free float automatic buoys did not emit a signal, despite being apparent immerse, and the Rockwater divers retrieved one of the HRU's from the empty bracket cage, suggesting that either someone removed them manually and switched them off or the electrician/radiographer who inspected them didn't do his job, to check they were active and ready to activate in an emergency, which seems unlikely.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You can find out for yourself how they work, here:

https://beacons.amsa.gov.au/about/float-free-epirbs.asp

You're quoting the modern standards again. You know this is dishonest yet you keep doing it. Why?

 

[Vixen]

This thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354857&page=31 wherein my relevant contribution begins with post #1218. For context you need to go a few pages back where Vixen is reposting Anders Björkmann's paraphrasing (without attribution, of course).

You dismiss the maritime expert skills of Asser Koivisto who presented to the JAIC in 1995 how the Estonia Kannad 406F EPIRB's worked.

Here in Finland we have once a year what is called 'Jealousy Day' because despite the usual tight privacy laws, once a year the government's Tax Office releases the details of every taxpayer and how much tax they earned. This gives people the opportunity to see how much better paid everybody else seems to be, which, of course, is an illusion because papers tend to concentrate on the top 5% or so. Anyway, here is Asser Koivisto's public domain tax return of the Year 2021, as per the Tax Office:

Koivisto Asser Joel
BORN 1950, RESIDENCE IN VARSINAIS-FINLAND

LATEST INFORMATION
Founder and CEO of Navielektro, which makes maritime surveillance systems

Rank 2021: 121
Earned income 2021: 2 506 040 €
Capital income 2021: 2 616 264 €
Tax rate 2021: 43 %
Earnings and capital income 2021: 5 122 304 € 195 ×
Tax machine total income: 38 488 790 €

https://verokone.hs.fi/henkilo/1950Koivisto Asser Joel

Do you really think this is a fool talking? So you can either opt for the word of someone who supplies the Finnish Navy with maritime surveillance systems or you can rely on a random person on the internet on an obscure forum who says he recently bought an EPIRB for his boat.

 

[lobosrul5]

Here's the thing. This is a busy passenger ferry. Usual crew and staff. The EPIRBS were affixed one each side of the bridge in a float-free bracket with a Hydrostatic Release Unit. As one might expect with a big ship carrying up to 1,500 people, regular standard inspections are carried out. MV Estonia had her buoys inspected as being in full working order by the ships electricians and there is a log of it. The HRU unit is triggered when immersed in up to 4m of water, hence one on either side of the ship depending on which side it capsizes. To avoid the possibility of a false alarm being sent (for example hooligans or for battery saving) they are switched off if in port for a longer period than a few days, for maintenance or whatever. The fact the free float automatic buoys did not emit a signal, despite being apparent immerse, and the Rockwater divers retrieved one of the HRU's from the empty bracket cage, suggesting that either someone removed them manually and switched them off or the electrician/radiographer who inspected them didn't do his job, to check they were active and ready to activate in an emergency, which seems unlikely.

Aside from the fact that it was a regular crew and that indeed yes the ferry was busy (for certain definitions of busy)... you're repeatedly wrong. And have been shown to be wrong.

Although, I cannot recall if its been noted where the EPIRB/HRU mounts were on the Estonia in this thread. My educated guess would be on a deck where authorized personnel only were allowed. Therefore, no worries about hooligans.

Also why the **** would switching them off do anything to stop a hooligan? Couldn't he just switch them back on? IF indeed they had some sort of master off switch.

 

[lobosrul5]

You dismiss the maritime expert skills of Asser Koivisto who presented to the JAIC in 1995 how the Estonia Kannad 406F EPIRB's worked.

Here in Finland we have once a year what is called 'Jealousy Day' because despite the usual tight privacy laws, once a year the government's Tax Office releases the details of every taxpayer and how much tax they earned. This gives people the opportunity to see how much better paid everybody else seems to be, which, of course, is an illusion because papers tend to concentrate on the top 5% or so. Anyway, here is Asser Koivisto's public domain tax return of the Year 2021, as per the Tax Office:

https://verokone.hs.fi/henkilo/1950Koivisto Asser Joel

Do you really think this is a fool talking? So you can either opt for the word of someone who supplies the Finnish Navy with maritime surveillance systems or you can rely on a random person on the internet on an obscure forum who says he recently bought an EPIRB for his boat.

This is like saying Elon Musk is the worlds greatest engineer because he makes lots of money. What complete nonsense.

Also, you I see you never came up with a credible source of what Koivisto's actual report was. You just expect us to take your word on it.

 

[JayUtah]

You dismiss the maritime expert skills of Asser Koivisto who presented to the JAIC in 1995 how the Estonia Kannad 406F EPIRB's worked.

Asked and answered. Koivisto's company does not manufacture emergency beacons. Koivisto's c.v. provides no basis for the expertise you attribute to him on the subject of emergency beacons.

Anyway, here is Asser Koivisto's public domain tax return of the Year 2021, as per the Tax Office:

Why do you think his financial position has the slightest to do with the expertise you're trying to attribute to him?

Do you really think this is a fool talking?

Straw man. I never called him a fool. He simply does not appear to have the expertise you say he must have.

So you can either opt for the word of someone who supplies the Finnish Navy with maritime surveillance systems...

Asked ans answered. His company supplies the equipment. That says nothing about his personal expertise. The equipment his company supplies has nothing to do with emergency signalling.

...or you can rely on a random person on the internet on an obscure forum who says he recently bought an EPIRB for his boat.

Yes, I'm taking the word of someone who actually owns one of the devices, actually knows how to us it, and has done the proper research into the product history, over your word, which has proven highly unreliable. My own experience engineering beacon systems and my own experience sailing jibes with his.

 

[JayUtah]

Here's the thing.

I can make up stories too, but I prefer fact.

 

[Vixen]

This is like saying Elon Musk is the worlds greatest engineer because he makes lots of money. What complete nonsense.

Also, you I see you never came up with a credible source of what Koivisto's actual report was. You just expect us to take your word on it.

The J.A.I.C. never released it as it was solely focused on the car deck and the bow visor.

Today, we will hear from an expert on the operation of Estonia's EPIRB satellite buoys.
The buoys were found in the sea after the accident, and Estonians and Finns tested their operation on Tuesday. According to Estonian Radio, the buoys were made to transmit a radio signal. However, on the night of the accident, for some reason, the signal could not be received anywhere.
Buoys were supposed to signal the ship's position in case of emergency.

HS 28.1.1995

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Again, it's like Vixen doesn't believe anyone can possibly have expertise. She doesn't understand what actually counts as valid expertise in a subject and is baffled we don't think that someone who doesn't have a history with emergency beacons is an authority on them.

 

[Vixen]

Aside from the fact that it was a regular crew and that indeed yes the ferry was busy (for certain definitions of busy)... you're repeatedly wrong. And have been shown to be wrong.

Although, I cannot recall if its been noted where the EPIRB/HRU mounts were on the Estonia in this thread. My educated guess would be on a deck where authorized personnel only were allowed. Therefore, no worries about hooligans.

Also why the **** would switching them off do anything to stop a hooligan? Couldn't he just switch them back on? IF indeed they had some sort of master off switch.

They are battery operated, so perhaps to save battery. Maybe they were switched off when docked at land for the same reason one might turn off the lights.

 

[JayUtah]

They are battery operated, so perhaps to save battery.

And what would be drawing battery power if they aren't activated?

 

[Vixen]

Asked and answered. Koivisto's company does not manufacture emergency beacons. Koivisto's c.v. provides no basis for the expertise you attribute to him on the subject of emergency beacons.



Why do you think his financial position has the slightest to do with the expertise you're trying to attribute to him?



Straw man. I never called him a fool. He simply does not appear to have the expertise you say he must have.



Asked ans answered. His company supplies the equipment. That says nothing about his personal expertise. The equipment his company supplies has nothing to do with emergency signalling.



Yes, I'm taking the word of someone who actually owns one of the devices, actually knows how to us it, and has done the proper research into the product history, over your word, which has proven highly unreliable. My own experience engineering beacon systems and my own experience sailing jibes with his.

He founded the company. You can't be a successful entrepreneur trusted by the defence forces if you do not know your products and the industry itself.

To found a company you need to have an enthusiasm in your area of expertise. Thus you would expect someone who founds a car factory to know the key elements of how cars are constructed.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

They are battery operated, so perhaps to save battery. Maybe they were switched off when docked at land for the same reason one might turn off the lights.

Amazing.

 

[JayUtah]

The J.A.I.C. never released it as it was solely focused on the car deck and the bow visor.

No, you don't understand what a final report is. The final report presents the findings. The supplementary material details the investigation.

All you have is a statement by a journalist writing in 2020 claiming that a report was written in 1995 about the EPIRBs by someone who is not a subject-matter expert, and now that report cannot be found. This is more parsimoniously explained by such a report never having existed.

You seem to rely very heavily on news reports rather than primary sources. Why is that?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

VIXEN. Could you please respond to my posts as well? I've asked questions that you've ignored and I was also requesting you reveal the source of those images you provided.

 

[Vixen]

And what would be drawing battery power if they aren't activated?

It doesn't automatically become activated once you take it out of the tin.

Programming
When you buy a float-free EPIRB, you will be asked how you wish to program it. There are three options:

Option 1 – Manufacturers serial number
Option 2 – Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) of vessel
Option 3 – Radio callsign of vessel (registered with Australian Communications and Media Authority
Option 1 is most often recommended as it is the most flexible programming method and enables a faster purchase process. It also allows the EPIRB to be repositioned onto another vessel without reprogramming—just remember to update the EPIRB registration.

Option 2 and 3 are the most common methods of programming for SOLAS flagged vessels. MMSI and Radio callsign programming is customised coding and may delay the purchase and delivery process.

Option 3 is the MMSI or Radio callsign program. If you use this, all EPIRBs on board using this program should be programmed with the same identification so you should advise the supplier/retailer if you have other EPIRBs on board.

https://beacons.amsa.gov.au/about/float-free-epirbs.asp

But anyway the ship's electrician/radiographer will know the drill.

 

[JayUtah]

He founded the company.

He founded a company that makes navigational equipment, not emergency beacons.

You can't be a successful entrepreneur trusted by the defence forces if you do not know your products and the industry itself.

And you say this from your vast experience having started and operated engineering companies?

To found a company you need to have an enthusiasm in your area of expertise.

Or you need to be able to coordinate those who have capital and those who have ideas and skills. How many engineering companies have you founded?

 

[JayUtah]

It doesn't automatically become activated once you take it out of the tin.

You claim there was a switch that could be turned off to save battery power. This implies some component of the EPIRB would be drawing power with that hypothetical switch not in the off position. What component would that be?