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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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Matthew Best said:
I'm not particularly concerned with Florida. Do you live there or something?
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It's where he was imprisoned and where he was executed.

In the hypothetical event that he requested a transfer to a women's prison, Florida's laws would apply.

In the hypothetical event that the ACLU sued Florida, it would be Florida's (and federal) laws they would be dealing with.

If you want to talk about the effects of self-id in other states or countries, then their laws will be relevant instead.

There's no reason to suppose that self-id means trans prisoners get whatever they want.

You are not successfully identifying any danger at all here.
 
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Matthew Best said:
But that is the aim of it, which I am opposed to.
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Ok, you're opposed to the aims of unnamed parties in advocating for self-id laws (which has little to do with what might actually be passed).

How is that illustrated by the ACLU's complaint that Owen was not afforded necessary healthcare?
 
mumblethrax said:
Via the idea that "self-id" entails capitulation to all demands from trans people.
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But this is the point Matthew Best is making... it does demand capitulation to all demands from trans people

Trans activists are demanding that a man need only say that he is now a woman, and it becomes so. No diagnosis, no gender affirming medication, no name change or documentation.

- He shall not be questioned about it - doing so is hate speech!
- He does not even have to dress as a woman, or in any way make himself appear like one.
- He will have absolute right of access to women's toilets and changing rooms.

I could stand outside a women's public toilets, declare myself to be a woman, and walk straight in. In this country, I would be acting 100% within the law, and there isn't anything anyone can do to stop me. If anyone does try to stop me physically, that would be assault, with a hate crime enhancement.

NOTE: My daughters now carry pepper spray, and they know how to use it. It is illegal to carry and use in this country but they are putting their safety first.
 
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smartcooky said:
But this is the point Matthew Best is making... it does demand capitulation to all demands from trans people.
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Demand in one hand, **** in the other, see which fills up first.

I could stand outside a women's public toilets, declare myself to be a woman, and walk straight in.
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You can also do that without any such declaration. And the declaration will not protect from legal consequences in any jurisdiction with a self-id law (or at least, I'm not aware of any.)
 
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mumblethrax said:
Ok, you're opposed to the aims of unnamed parties in advocating for self-id laws (which has little to do with what might actually be passed).
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Correct.

How is that illustrated by the ACLU's complaint that Owen was not afforded necessary healthcare?
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Why would you expect an ACLU complaint to illustrate my objection to gender self ID?
 
Matthew Best said:
Why would you expect an ACLU complaint to illustrate my objection to gender self ID?
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Because that's exactly what you said it did. That it illustrated the dangers of self-id.

All you've told me in support of that is that you oppose the aims of unnamed parties who support self-id.

Everything else is happening in your imagination.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Because that's exactly what you said it did. That it illustrated the dangers of self-id.

All you've told me in support of that is that you oppose the aims of unnamed parties who support self-id.

Everything else is happening in your imagination.
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You think it's just my imagination that trans rights activists support self ID?

"Self-id, as it is known, is the idea that people be allowed to change the legal markers of their sex simply by saying so, without jumping through any medical hoops. Trans-rights groups say this is crucial for trans people"

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/06/12/continental-europe-enters-the-gender-wars
 
mumblethrax said:
Demand in one hand, **** in the other, see which fills up first.


You can also do that without any such declaration. And the declaration will not protect from legal consequences in any jurisdiction with a self-id law (or at least, I'm not aware of any.)
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It does in this jurisdiction!
 
Matthew Best said:
You think it's just my imagination that trans rights activists support self ID?
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No. I think it's in your imagination that the ACLU's tweet in any way shape or form illustrates the dangers of unnamed parties aiming for hyper-permissive self-id.
 
mumblethrax said:
a) Where?
b) How should I know?
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You indicated that you did know.

You told me that "if the state can show that they have a rational basis in keeping [her] out of a women's prison, then no, [she] would not belong there."

So you must believe that they have a legal mechanism for housing a woman in a male prison.
 
Matthew Best said:
So you must believe that they have a legal mechanism for housing a woman in a male prison.
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That was in Florida. Which has no self-id law. Owen is not a woman in the eyes of the state of Florida.

If you're asking me to imagine what would change if Florida were to pass a self-id law, I can't, because I have no idea what it would say.
 
If it doesn't say that a person's legal sex should be determined by their self-declared gender identity without any medical requirements, then it's not really a self ID law, is it.

And if a self ID law is passed, then a man can become a woman, and thus that woman would have to be housed in a women's prison, absent a legal mechanism for housing a woman in a male prison.

If you think all of this is ridiculous, then we are in agreement. But I still have to wonder why trans rights activists are pushing for it if it's so ridiculous.
 
Matthew Best said:
If it doesn't say that a person's legal sex should be determined by their self-declared gender identity without any medical requirements, then it's not really a self ID law, is it.
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Why are you assuming that the inevitable conclusion of unnamed parties' desire would be anything deserving of the name? Especially in Florida?

And if a self ID law is passed, then a man can become a woman, and thus that woman would have to be housed in a women's prison, absent a legal mechanism for housing a woman in a male prison.
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A man can become a woman (in the eyes of the state) irrespective of any such law passing.

The legal mechanism would be whatever is necessary to overcome the relevant anti-discrimination statute/jurisprudence.

If you think all of this is ridiculous, then we are in agreement. But I still have to wonder why trans rights activists are pushing for it if it's so ridiculous.
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Why does any activist reach for the stars? Because that's their starting point for negotiations.
 
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mumblethrax said:
Why are you assuming that is the inevitable conclusion of unnamed parties' desire would be anything deserving of the name? Especially in Florida?
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I've already told you I'm not fixated on Florida.


A man can become a woman (in the eyes of the state) irrespective of any such law passing.

The legal mechanism would be whatever is necessary to overcome the relevant anti-discrimination statute/jurisprudence.
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So you do know the mechanism? Please explain it.

Why does any activist reach for the stars? Because that's their starting point for negotiations.
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So it's OK for them to make extreme demands, but it's somehow wrong to push back against those extreme demands?
 
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Matthew Best said:
I've already told you I'm not fixated on Florida.
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Then where do you want to talk about?

So you do know the mechanism? Please explain it.
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In the US, the basis for overcoming anti-discrimination law of this kind would be the rational basis test. Which means that such discrimination has to be rationally related to a legitimate government interest, real or hypothetical.

It would go something like this, I think:

Trans Prisoner Who Has Committed Brutal Acts of Violence Against Women: "Women's prison, please!"
Hypothetical State Where They Give Two ***** About Prisoners and Trans People are Legally Protected from Discrimination in Prisons: "Upon review of your request...no."
TPWHCBAoVAW: "Racist!"
HSWTGTSAPaTPaLPfDiP: "Lol."
TPWHCBAoVAW: "You're discriminating against me!"
HSWTGTSAPaTPaLPfDiP: "Yeah. We get to do that because you pose a risk to female prisoners."
TPWHCBAoVAW: "I'm going to sue!"
HSWTGTSAPaTPaLPfDiP: "Ok. Have fun proving that we don't have a basis for doing this, because that's what you need to do."

And why do people oppose such reach? I think you can figure it out for yourself.
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Because they don't want hyper-permissive self-id laws, obviously.

Still not seeing where the danger is.
 
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