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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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Meadmaker said:
And explaining exactly when they ought to be treated as the opposite sex, even when we know they aren't, is a complicated subject and there is much less agreement among us trans-exclusive folks on that question, but that doesn't seem like a topic you are interested in pursuing.
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I'd also add that most of us Gender Criticals were previously quite willing to make accommodations on a case-by-case basis as the need presented itself. But we keep being told that we cannot make case-by-case decisions, that we *MUST* grant accommodation and access to *ANY* male who claims a gendery feel, and if we do not do so, we are transphobic bigots.

And when we're forced to choose between all or none, well, my answer is none.
 
Someone in another thread told me that gender identity is largely a matter of which public toilet you choose, that if you knew to choose the men's toilet then you knew you were a man

It didn't make a lot of sense to me but he/she said he couldn't clarify it or answer any questions about it and that thread and that I should ask about it in this thread.

Anyone know anything about this?

If not then sorry to interrupt but the two people who were pushing this theory were insistent I come over.here if I wanted to know more about it.

Yes, maybe they were just yanking my chain (so to speak) but they seemed very sincere.
 
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Robin said:
Someone in another thread told me that gender identity is largely a matter of which public toilet you choose, that if you knew to choose the men's toilet then you knew you were a man

It didn't make a lot of sense to me but he/she said he couldn't clarify it or answer any questions about it and that thread and that I should ask about it in this thread.

Anyone know anything about this?

If not then sorry to interrupt but the two people who were pushing this theory were insistent I come over.here if I wanted to know more about it.

Yes, maybe they were just yanking my chain (so to speak) but they seemed very sincere.
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For avoidance of doubt, please quote the specific question you want answered. Not a rephrase or reframe, but the actual question itself as it was posed in the other thread.
 
Robin said:
Someone in another thread told me that gender identity is largely a matter of which public toilet you choose, that if you knew to choose the men's toilet then you knew you were a man

It didn't make a lot of sense to me but he/she said he couldn't clarify it or answer any questions about it and that thread and that I should ask about it in this thread.

Anyone know anything about this?
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That's a new one.

For my answer, I would respond much as I did to Dani. Give me a definition, and maybe I can answer, but definitions are kind of sparse in this neighborhood. They are sought far more than they are provided.

Maybe more context would make it make more sense, but I'm puzzled given just the stuff you have there.
 
Robin said:
Someone in another thread told me that gender identity is largely a matter of which public toilet you choose, that if you knew to choose the men's toilet then you knew you were a man

It didn't make a lot of sense to me but he/she said he couldn't clarify it or answer any questions about it and that thread and that I should ask about it in this thread.

Anyone know anything about this?
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There are relatively few situations when one is forced to choose between gender roles, i.e. the set of "behaviors...generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable" for males or the set considered acceptable for females. Upthread we've discussed various sports leagues, changing rooms, sleeper cars, swimming or spa facilities, clothing stores, etc. but the situation which comes up most often in everyday life would have to be public toilets.
 
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I have moved some bickering to AAH, and given cards to a couple of posters

Try to behave with some civility
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob


continued from http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356361

I tried to sort out what posts were not insults in the last few pages and gave up
Posted By: jimbob
 
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d4m10n said:
Upthread we've discussed various sports leagues, changing rooms, sleeper cars, swimming or spa facilities, clothing stores, etc. but the situation which comes up most often in everyday life would have to be public toilets.
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A quick addendum to this post. The everyday act of having to choose between behaviour considered socially acceptable for males (entering the men's restroom) and behaviour considered socially acceptable for females (entering the women's restroom) is generally considered oppressive by transgender individuals who identify as non-binary. This is why progressive conferences like Skepticon will go to some pains to provide gender neutral restrooms among other accessibility features. I imagine that agender folks (like Robin) would enjoy not having to undergo the ordeal of implicitly self-identifying whenever they need to take a leak.
 
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Interested in a skeptical take on the claims about puberty blockers just after 9:40 or so.
 
We've discussed this several times in the thread. The claims are completely false.
 
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theprestige said:
For avoidance of doubt, please quote the specific question you want answered. Not a rephrase or reframe, but the actual question itself as it was posed in the other thread.
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Hello Robin! Just wanted to let you know I'm still happy to answer your question, and do the best I can to further explain my views if you want a followup discussion, any time you're ready!
 
I see that thing that never happens has happened again. And again, and again.

Trans-Identified Male Paedophile Avoids Jail After Being Caught With 125,000 Child Sex Abuse Images

A trans-identified male paedophile has avoided jail after after a judge deemed that prison would make it too difficult for him to “cope” with his transition and anxiety.

Peter Selby, 68, was found with over 125,000 pieces of child sexual abuse media after a police raid in 2019, some of which depicted children as young as three years old. Selby is male but identifies as a transgender ‘woman.’ [....]

In recent months, there have been multiple instances of trans-identified male paedophiles being turned out into the community on suspended sentences in the United Kingdom.

In April, a 60-year-old paedophile who claimed to identify as a 5-year-old girl avoided jail despite having breached a long-standing sexual harm prevention order by approaching and kissing two children.

Weeks prior to that, another trans-identified male was spared jail on a suspended sentence after being caught with over 250 pieces of child sexual abuse media, some of which included toddlers being sexually tortured.
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I do not know whether this should be interpreted as indicating a particularly pernicious propensity for abhorrent behaviour on the part of transwomen, or the opportunistic behaviour of sex offenders who have realised that claiming a trans identity may spare them prison entirely, and even if it doesn't, is likely to see them serving their sentences locked up with a bunch of women who can't get away from them. It doesn't really matter, because with self-ID there is no way to tell the difference, and in practical terms the effect is the same.
 
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Rolfe said:
I see that thing that never happens has happened again. And again, and again.

Trans-Identified Male Paedophile Avoids Jail After Being Caught With 125,000 Child Sex Abuse Images




I do not know whether this should be interpreted as indicating a particularly pernicious propensity for abhorrent behaviour on the part of transwomen, or the opportunistic behaviour of sex offenders who have realised that claiming a trans identity may spare them prison entirely, and even if it doesn't, is likely to see them serving their sentences locked up with a bunch of women who can't get away from them. It doesn't really matter, because with self-ID there is no way to tell the difference, and in practical terms the effect is the same.
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I guess evidence that this sentence was unusually lenient is supposed to be assumed?

The judge in the case cited a number of factors, including the offender seeking counseling after arrest, good behavior pending trial, an assessment by court officials that Selby was "manageable" in the community.

Is there any evidence that a cis person in a similar circumstance would not have received a similar outcome?
 
Rolfe said:
We've discussed this several times in the thread. The claims are completely false.
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I was hoping for a little more detailed discussion rather than conclusory assertion.

On the one hand, we have articles like this one, which claims "Puberty blockers, GnRh agonists like the injectable Lupron or the implant Supprelin, suppress puberty by modifying hormone release. Such drugs have been used off-label safely for more than 30 years to stop early puberty."

On the other hand, we have articles like this one.
 
Honestly, it's in this actual thread and I spent a lot of time typing it all out. It was a pretty in-depth discussion.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I guess evidence that this sentence was unusually lenient is supposed to be assumed?

The judge in the case cited a number of factors, including the offender seeking counseling after arrest, good behavior pending trial, an assessment by court officials that Selby was "manageable" in the community.

Is there any evidence that a cis person in a similar circumstance would not have received a similar outcome?
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Tell you what. You find a comparable example where a man who didn't play the "lady feelz" card wasn't imprisoned for a similar offence. Good luck.
 
Rolfe said:
Tell you what. You find a comparable example where a man who didn't play the "lady feelz" card wasn't imprisoned for a similar offence. Good luck.
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Right, so you're just asserting this without a lick of evidence. As I thought.
 
Rolfe said:
I do not know whether this should be interpreted as indicating a particularly pernicious propensity for abhorrent behaviour on the part of transwomen, or the opportunistic behaviour of sex offenders who have realised that claiming a trans identity may spare them prison entirely, and even if it doesn't, is likely to see them serving their sentences locked up with a bunch of women who can't get away from them.
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Neither of those would be a competent inference.

It doesn't really matter, because with self-ID there is no way to tell the difference, and in practical terms the effect is the same.
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Every self-id proposal I've seen requires a statutory declaration, so there's a very obvious way to tell the difference.
 
mumblethrax said:
Every self-id proposal I've seen requires a statutory declaration, so there's a very obvious way to tell the difference.
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The UK has invented quite a pointlessly complex problem because it technically allows people to officially transition and avoid any ambiguity, but in practice makes this a long and difficult process to complete.

The UK law requires trans people to have been living their gender identity for at least 2 years before any legal recognition is granted. This obviously creates an opportunity for ambiguity where an "out" trans person is still not granted any official status for years at a time.
 
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