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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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Vixen said:
Voronin was a Russian Jew. It is a factual statement. He was an arms trader. He was a staunch Zionist. The police (one presumes, as it wasn't in the Rockwater official remit) appears to have been treating the attaché case as an item of interest.

Jutta Rabe claims she was given insider information that the US acquisitioned the cargo for Israel.

As you know the Middle East conflict was very much on the map at that time with Clinton playing peace maker.
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Where is your evidence for any of this? Why do you 'presume' the police were directing the divers or even interested in the case?

What does Rabe back up her claims with?
Who was the 'insider'?
 
LondonJohn said:
And I also note with very keen interest that Vixen hasn't felt the need to specifically mention the religion and religious-political views of people such as the masters of the Estonia and Silja Europa (or, for that matter, any other person connected with this disaster....).

As I say: interesting, huh?
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Oh rubbish.

I've been to the Holy Land and fell in love with both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Wonderful people. I have friends who are avidly pro-Palestinian and others, actively Zionist. Myself, I keep out of the politics.

Why can't people just live in peace.
 
Vixen said:
You do not understand.
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Oh, really?

How many American FOIA requests have you made? How many American FOIA requests have you been in charge of answering? Have you ever held a government security clearance or been in charge of classified information?

Under the Freedom of Information Act, the department has a legal requirement to comply and if not, to state the reason, of which it is only when a document is 'classified', they do not and if it is to do with national security then they have to state it, and that is what they stated about three documents on the Estonia in their possession.
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"National security" is a giant umbrella of potential reasons, the most common of which is the protection of methods and sources. People like you and Wilson, with little if any experience in classified materials, always want to cite the most dire possibility. It's never the case that the reason people think they were forbidden access to classified material is the real reason.
 
Vixen said:
Voronin was a Russian Jew. It is a factual statement. He was an arms trader. He was a staunch Zionist. The police (one presumes, as it wasn't in the Rockwater official remit) appears to have been treating the attaché case as an item of interest.

Jutta Rabe claims she was given insider information that the US acquisitioned the cargo for Israel.
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This is interesting. Why not make a point of mentioning that she is German?
 
Vixen said:
Voronin was a Russian Jew. It is a factual statement. He was an arms trader. He was a staunch Zionist.
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So, suppose for a moment that the captain of the Estonia, Capt Andresson, was an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Would it have been in any way relevant to any discussion about the Estonia disaster to make specific mention of Andresson's religion, even though it would have been "a factual statement"?



The police (one presumes, as it wasn't in the Rockwater official remit) appears to have been treating the attaché case as an item of interest.
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One need not presume anything of the sort here. One can seek out and supply appropriate supporting evidence, or one can refrain from making such an unsupported claim.



Jutta Rabe claims she was given insider information that the US acquisitioned the cargo for Israel.
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Jutta Rabe is a disgraced former journalist. But if she wants to present credible, reliable evidence in support of this claim, she should do so. Otherwise her claims are baseless and worthless.

(And I'm guessing you mean "requisitioned"....)



As you know the Middle East conflict was very much on the map at that time with Clinton playing peace maker.
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Do you have any (credible, reliable) evidence that the Middle East conflict had anything at all to do with the Estonia disaster? If not (and I know the answer to that conditional already...), then what's it doing even being mentioned in this thread?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Again you are making things up.

The Estonia flooded through the bow and water got in to the machinery spaces through ventilators, air intakes and ducts.

What the **** does Archimedes have to do with it? Did he plant the charges?
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It holds true to this day.

It took 18 hours for all of the stuff you mention to happen to the Oceanos.

It needs a better explanation than, 'it happened because t happened'.
 
Vixen said:
If the JAIC are going to postulate that this is what happened, they need to describe how it went against Archimedes Principles, in detail.
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You've been invited several times to give the details of Archimedes' law that you claim are violated by the conventional narrative. You cannot. You cannot display the slightest understanding of the issues of stability and buoyancy. So you keep hurling "Archimedes' Principle" out there as if the mention of it somehow vitalizes the controversy you're trying to stir up. The bluff isn't working.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Eventually one of them did. Some of the others were in real danger of sinking, averted by the actions they took. The Estonia ploughed on at full speed into heavy seas which was reckless to begin with and fatal after the visor was damaged.
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That's like saying, 'Eventually, one painted blue and white sank'.

We are not given any explanation as to why 'The Estonia ploughed on at full speed into heavy seas which was reckless to begin with and fatal after the visor was damaged.'

It was only running fifteen minutes late when it departed Tallinn.

Where was the captain? We are not told who was in control of the ship.


No effort seems to have been made to determine this key point.
 
Vixen said:
12.6.1 of the JAIC Report:
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Wait. You were asked to explain your much repeated mantra "a ship cannot float on its superstructure". When challenged you claimed the JAIC said it. (I guess you mean they said it could?) And when challenged again you quoted them saying water on the car deck couldn't have sunk the ship if water had not been able to enter other parts of the ship.

You know they conclude that water *did* enter other parts of the ship. You know they said windows on the higher decks would have broken in and allowed faster flooding. But that's specific to this ship.
Where does your justification for your mantra that a ship cannot float on its superstructure come in?
 
zooterkin said:
Please cite exactly where this is said.
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12.6.1:

According to the hydrostatic calculations, a continuously increasing amount of water on the car deck would make the aft windows of deck 4 the first possible flooding point to other areas. Soon thereafter the windows and the aft entrance doors of deck 5 would also be submerged. A little less than 2,000 t of water on the car deck would be sufficient to bring the first flooding points down to the mean water surface. In this condition the list would be about 35° . The lowest corner of the ramp opening would here be still a little above the mean water surface.

As soon as water was free to enter the accommodation decks all residual stability would be impaired and the ship in practice lost. Without an intact superstructure above deck 4, the largest possible equilibrium heel angle before a complete capsize would be 40° . This condition would be exceeded with about 2,000 t of water on the car deck.
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JAIC Report


It has the Estonia floating on its superstructure as the means of its reserve buoyancy (air) being displaced by water.

If that was the case it should have capsized in literally minutes, as the Herald of Free Enerprise or MS Jan Heweliusz did.
 
Vixen said:
Oh rubbish.

I've been to the Holy Land and fell in love with both the Israelis and the Palestinians. Wonderful people. I have friends who are avidly pro-Palestinian and others, actively Zionist. Myself, I keep out of the politics.

Why can't people just live in peace.
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Some of my best friends are black Jews.

Any chance of you ever dealing with my post that I've specifically mentioned and quoted more than once Vixen?
 
LondonJohn said:
Do you have any (credible, reliable) evidence that the Middle East conflict had anything at all to do with the Estonia disaster? If not (and I know the answer to that conditional already...), then what's it doing even being mentioned in this thread?
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Obviously the Israelis wanted to replace all their new American electronics and weapons with old Russian stuff.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
That is:

1. Only one of my points. I asked you to deal with several.

2. Not what you claimed anyway. You didn't claim Bildt told Clinton stuff, you claimed he sought Clinton's approval for the makeup of the government. So were you lying when you made that claim?

Come on. Back up your actual claim, or retract it, and answer my other points.

Why did you claim the US president was in charge of the CIA? Why do you endlessly make claims about things you know nothing about? Why are you continuing to defend Bjorkman? Why are you lying about what Bjorkman said in the quote I provided? Why do you think that a total incomprehension of basic physics is a personality quirk, and not something that invalidates someone's claims of expertise on engineering?

Stop deflecting, stop trying to motte-and-bailey your way around people asking you to support your claims and stop being a coward. Answer questions.
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Again, this is the post to which I'm referring.
 
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