• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Pandering to other cultures beliefs through some guilt

I remember hearing something on NPR similar to this. I didn't quite grok concept, but as I recall, the assertion was that the scientific method was inherently racist or culturist or something. I think it was referring, in this case to indigenous African knowledge...or rather indigenous ways of examining evidence and drawing conclusions.

I couldn't find a source for that, and I may not be remembering correctly. I was driving on an errand and did not hear the whole program.

What you may have heard what a segment on cultural relativism, which is popular in humanities departments nowadays - or at least it was when I was in college. This says the methods of acquiring knowledge used by indigenous cultures and modern science are equally valid, independent, and alternative ways of acquiring knowledge. They use words and phrases like "marginalize" and "power structures" a lot.
 
OP didn't include a link.

This is the one that matters - an explanation of what matauranga Maori actually is: https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/2545-matauranga-maori-and-science

Since it's an umbrella term for "all Maori knowledge", it includes this:

From chaos sprang Papatūānuku, the Earth mother. Then Papa-matua-te-kore, the parentless, appeared. She mated with Rangi-a-Tamaku. Their firstborn was Putoto, whose sister was Parawhenuamea, the personified form of water. Putoto took his sister, Parawhenuamea, to wife. She gave birth to Rakahore, who mated with Hinekuku, the clay maiden. Hinekuku gave birth to Tuamatua. Tuamatua was the guardian of the different stones and gravel found on sea coasts. The younger brother of Tuamatua, Whatuaho, typified greywacke and chert. Next came Papakura, the origin of volcanic stone

And, how, does this affect anyone but the locals?
Why would it be anyone's business but theirs?

Good point!

Let's close all those interminable threads on guns and racism in USA for starters - they only affect locals.

TF is "maori knowledge"?

Everything Maori "know", which includes all of their religion, superstitions and fairytales. It should definitely be part of social studies.

Huh? I'm sorry, but what just happened?

Did a university professor decide to rage quit a university?

No, he resigned from a position he was holding as acting department head.

Let's see...is the NZ government demanding that Maori fairytales about the creation of the universe be taught in science classes?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not.

Limb broke, sorry - hope you didn't fall too far.

From the NZ Government's science curriculum pages:

Why should we consider alternative world views in our teaching of science?

An appreciation of the existence and nature of mātauranga pūtaiao and its relationship with science is a key aspect to being a New Zealander.

But it's ok, because we're equal opportunity when it comes to fairytales and the curriculum notes go on to say:

Other learners, including Pacific, are also entitled to have their language, culture and identity recognised in their learning.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that most science teachers can safely ignore any claims that Maori fairytales about how the world was created.

Two broken limbs in a row; I'm hoping you're a cat right now, because otherwise you must be heavily banged up.

Te Tiriti o Waitangi is the founding principle of education in NZ and cannot be ignored in any part of the curriculum.

Be nice if someone were actually clear about what's under consideration. Are we talking about traditional superstitions that are being elevated to the same status as empirical facts, without going through the process of hypothesis-experiment-theory?

Exactly that.

If it's the former, then I'd say Kiwi academia has a serious problem with reality versus political correctness, and "civil disobedience" by dissenting professors is probably called for.

Been there, tried, that, got fired...

Next suggestion?
 
Interesting thing here - articles on the subject of the Prof's resignation state he resigned of his own accord.

Stuff's headline, which some subby has forgotten to change, reads slightly differently:

uaresign.PNG


Did he fall, or was he pushed?
 
I don’t know about all that. Most of the stuff I’m finding sounds more like various indigenous groups being annoyed that western scientists did like western explorers did, that is, ignored half of everything the people could have told them and then acted like nobody found any of it out before. Leading to a state of “You didn’t care about my traditional knowledge before so why should I play your ‘let’s validate what you been know’ games now?”

It’s a bit crunchy for me but I’m gonna file it under ‘understandable cultural backlash that won’t cause problems significant enough to worry me.’ I mean, traditional knowledge is a mixed bag and could probably benefit from a good vetting to separate out the little chunks of snake oil that wander in to all such knowledge bases. But I also can’t blame any of these groups for feeling like slapping grubby science monkey hands off their stuff for historical mistrust/disrespect reasons.

https://theconversation.com/its-tak...ly-catching-up-to-traditional-knowledge-90291
 
Why just Maori traditional beliefs? Why not Biblically literal origin tales, you know, Genesis and all that? Be nice to give a week to Hinduism and it's primordial egg too. Are there many Papuans in NZ? Must be some, so let's give a hearing to how the ancestors (theirs anyway) set up the world. And don't forget the Entirely Native American Blackfoot* knowledge that Buffalo Woman came out of a sinkhole in Nebraska, bringing most of the animals and people with her, also knives and cooking pots (you can visit the sinkhole and look into it if you don't believe me).

Well, of course, in En Zed there's a Maori vote. The pol who doesn't pander, smarm, and flatter every bloc of voters his staff can identify will soon be off the public payroll.

So a little sympathy here for those selflessly dedicated public servants who tirelessly know what's best for us and them.

*What were they doing all the way down in Braska? Oh well, the first peoples know best. They always do, nowadays.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I’m perfectly happy leaving the actual mythology in the culture classes but I ssstttroooongly suspect we’re looking at something more like ‘this origin story about land being hauled up from the ocean bears out as tectonic activity’ as the sort of ‘wild overreach’ you’re actually going to get in class.

Half the reason I’m annoyed with mainstream religious incursion into classrooms is because it’s already culturally ubiquitous. Peppering in little bits of little-known mythology as a framing device, on the other hand, can be kind of neat and engaging.
 
I note this guy is a professor of psychology. There are plenty of people who do not consider psychology a proper science.


But yes, it is amusing to read history and discover Mount Everest wasn't climbed, nor America discovered nor Antartica reached, nor some remote islands near the North West Pacific named, until some Western guy came along in the last three or four centuries. Before then...Sir Hillary's sherpa, perhaps, or Big Chief Sitting Bull...maybe some Maoris made it across the oceans 'n'all.
 
I would like to get more facts, please.
If he quit because the University insisted he teach Maori myths as facts, I 100% support him.
I am disturbed that some people here would be up in arms if it was "Chrisitian Creation " instead of Maori Myths. Yeah, I think there is a certain amount of "Indigeneous People" romantacism around here, which is just another recycling of Rosseau's "Noble Savage" crap.
 
Interesting that OP frames the criticism as being motivated by pandering rather than the possibility the people involved might have a sincere beef with the letter.

Seems more like projection than any assessment based in fact.
 
First day of 9th grade science class way back in the early 80"s . A memorable moment based on this same story.

The teacher introduced herself and said by state law she has to teach creationism in addition to real science stuff.

She went on that in creationism the answer is goddidit and any other questions get the same answer.
And then she said she would spend the rest of the school year teaching the other stuff. And she didn't ever mention the religious stuff ever again.

The law was satisfied by her two minutes of compliance as far as public schools care. We also had classes that covered ancient mythology as history courses. Few took it.
 
Why just Maori traditional beliefs? Why not Biblically literal origin tales, you know, Genesis and all that? Be nice to give a week to Hinduism and it's primordial egg too.

I did note that other cultures would be entitled to have the same stupidity taught at schools.

Well, of course, in En Zed there's a Maori vote. The pol who doesn't pander, smarm, and flatter every bloc of voters his staff can identify will soon be off the public payroll.

That's actually incorrect in NZ - Maori vote overwhelmingly in Maori electorates and have virtually no significance in general elections because they always vote for left parties.

I would like to get more facts, please.
If he quit because the University insisted he teach Maori myths as facts, I 100% support him.

The facts are all in the articles - he quit because the piece he wrote went down like a cup of cold sick.

His complaint was that fairytales are being given equal footing in schools to science.

Yeah, I think there is a certain amount of "Indigeneous People" romantacism around here, which is just another recycling of Rosseau's "Noble Savage" crap.

There's a hell of a lot of it down here, with the recent classic example being a claim that Maori discovered Antarctica long before white men. Their claim is based on a single campfire story about an unnamed Maori sailor seeing a white land.

Never mind that there's no evidence for it, nor that Maori "technology" was 100% unable to cope with either the trip, the cold, or the return, anyone denying the possibility would be pilloried.

We've reached the stage in NZ where Maori are also being painted as noble savages, despite carrying on cannibalism well into the 19th century.
 
I saw something very similar back in 2019. The University of Alaska, Fairbanks gave a degree to a student for proving native mythology true making use of Mormon apologetics.


Pseudoarchaeological claims of horses present in the Americas isn’t all that new. Recently, however, a new story started making the rounds on Facebook with a slightly different twist. Instead of trying to prove the introduction of the horse by the “lost tribe of Israel” or “the Philistines” as they settled the Americas a few thousand years ago, this story introduces something more plausible. Contrary to the current scientific consensus, horses, so the claim goes, didn’t go extinct in the Pleistocene and were not re-introduced post-contact. There are a lot of horse-lovers out there that get angry at people, like some cattle ranchers, who consider wild horses to be invasive specie and want herds destroyed rather than compete with their cattle on public grazing lands. So I expect this fuels some of this claim.

The claim itself isn’t necessarily crazy. I find the general notion that one or more species of Equus might have survived the Pleistocene to be an interesting scientific question. But that’s not the way Yvette Collin seems to approach the issue. In fact, her PhD dissertation (Collin, 2017)? from the University of Alaska Fairbanks takes a decidedly pseudoscientific approach to addressing it.

In her dissertation, Collin’s stated purpose is to “deconstruct the history of the horse in the Americas and its relationship with the Indigenous Peoples.” She seems to begin with a conclusion—that there is a “Western science” seeking to “disregard, purposefully exclude, and reconfigure” the traditional knowledge of Native Americans. Ultimately, she’d like to “reconstruct the history of the horse in the Americas in a way that is unbiased and accurate.”

Toward this endeavor, she fails.


https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/07/pseudoarchaeological-claims-of-horses-in-the-americas/


As for the term 'Western Science' that originated with Alt-Med promoters to 'explain' why their particular flavor of medical woo could not be tested in a lab.
 
The only information we have about the original "NCEA report" comes through the lens of this professor's complaint about it, and I'm not convinced he's relaying it accurately. I'd like to see the actual report for myself.

Unfortunately, after trying using several combinations of keywords used in the letter, I can't find the report itself by search engine or even on the NCEA website. Maybe someone else will have better luck.
 
Just as an example, take this description the professor evidently has a snit over, from an unnamed course in an unnamed subject:

"It pro- motes discussion and analysis of the ways in which science has been used to support the use dominance of Eurocentric views (among which, its as a rationale for colonisation of Maori and the suppression of Mäori knowledge); and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Maori and other indigenous peoples.

The professor, in his rebuttal, reframes this as a claim that "science colonizes", which he then argues against. But to me, it seems very clear that the description isn't taking issue with science itself, but rather how historically dicks have used science as one among their many rationales for being dicks and engaging in dickery.

And my reading seems to be supported by this page that The Atheist linked earlier. The Atheist's focus was on two sentences at the very bottom of the page; but the rest of the content is quite interesting, because it describes what this curriculum that includes both mātauranga Maori and science actually looks like:

The nature of science strand is the overarching, unifying strand. Through it, students learn what science is and how scientists work. They develop the skills, attitudes, and values to build a foundation for understanding the world. They come to appreciate that while scientific knowledge is durable, it is also constantly re-evaluated in the light of new evidence. They learn how scientists carry out investigations, and they come to see science as a socially valuable knowledge system. They learn how science ideas are communicated and to make links between scientific knowledge and everyday decisions and actions. These outcomes are pursued through the following contextual strands in which scientific knowledge has developed and continues to develop.

The living world strand is about living things and how they interact with each other and the environment. Students develop an understanding of the diversity of life and life processes, of where and how life has evolved, of evolution as the link between life processes and ecology, and of the impact of humans on all forms of life. As a result, they are able to make more informed decisions about significant biological issues. The emphasis is on the biology of New Zealand, including the sustainability of New Zealand’s unique fauna and flora and distinctive ecosystems.

The planet Earth and beyond strand is about the interconnecting systems and processes of the Earth, the other parts of the solar system, and the universe beyond. Students learn that Earth’s subsystems of geosphere (land), hydrosphere (water), atmosphere (air), and biosphere (life) are interdependent and that all are important. They come to appreciate that humans can affect this interdependence in both positive and negative ways.

Students also learn that Earth provides all the resources required to sustain life except energy from the Sun, and that, as humans, we act as guardians of these finite resources. This means knowing and understanding the numerous interactions of Earth’s four systems with the solar system. Students can then confront the issues facing our planet and make informed decisions about the protection and wise use of Earth’s resources.

The physical world strand provides explanations for a wide range of physical phenomena, including light, sound, heat, electricity, magnetism, waves, forces, and motion, united by the concept of energy, which is transformed from one form to another without loss. By studying physics, students gain an understanding of interactions between parts of the physical world and of the ways in which they can be represented. Knowing about physics enables people to understand a wide range of contemporary issues and challenges and potential technological solutions.

The material world strand involves the study of matter and the changes it undergoes. In their study of chemistry, students develop understandings of the composition and properties of matter, the changes it undergoes, and the energy involved. They use their understanding of the fundamental properties of chemistry to make sense of the world around them. They learn to interpret their observations by considering the properties and behaviour of atoms, molecules, and ions. They learn to communicate their understandings, using the symbols and conventions of chemistry. Using their knowledge of chemistry, they are better able to understand science-related challenges, such as environmental sustainability and the development of new materials, pharmaceuticals, and sources of energy.

Man, that's horrific stuff.

Investigations are used to generate and evaluate knowledge both in science and in mātauranga pūtaiao, to answer questions. A variety of investigation methods exist that involve making observations, gathering evidence, and collecting and interpreting data. Different investigation approaches are appropriate for answering different questions. Approaches may include pattern-seeking, exploring and observing, investigating models, classifying and identifying, making things, developing systems, and fair testing. Key aspects of investigating in science include formulating questions, using an appropriate investigation approach to generate evidence, and evaluating both the suitability of the approach and the rigour of the evidence generated. All steps are important to ensure the findings of an investigation are robust and fit for purpose.

My god.

Students in Science will:

- develop greater understanding of the nature of mātauranga Māori and the nature of western science. They recognise how western science and mātauranga Māori knowledge can help solve world problems. They understand how models and theories have developed through time (and are influenced by culture, politics etc), and how evidence continues to inform future projections of the application

- grasp increasingly complex science concepts and apply them to an growing range of contexts

- understand that science knowledge is developed through investigation

- select, plan and carry out a range of appropriate investigations (including evaluating method and data)

- analyse information in its various forms and know how to check the sources of information.

- identify the assumptions that underlie claims made by journalists, scientists, and themselves, and to check these against the evidence

- learn to distinguish science from pseudo science.

Outrageous!

The knowledge that we call mātauranga pūtaiao informs the world view of Māori – so mātauranga pūtaiao is less about the knowledge itself and more about how engaging with it provides a Māori perspective on the world.

When we incorporate mātauranga pūtaiao into our programmes of learning it is important to avoid inserting it in, or comparing it to western science. The two world views and bodies of knowledge are separate and need to be considered separately. One should not be given greater status than the other – both have authority.

What nonsense!

Call me too optimistic, but it really seems like the purpose of including lessons on mātauranga pūtaiao isn't oppositional, it isn't to use native mythology stories to challenge or replace or as an alternative narrative to scientific theories and concepts or the scientific method. It's no Intelligent Design situation. In fact I don't read a whiff of anti-science subtext anywhere on this page. Quite the contrary; the text on the page clearly indicates that scientific methodology is considered important and irreplaceable.

Seriously, I wish American schools taught children to check assumptions against evidence and distinguish science from pseudoscience. If the cost has to be also learning a native bread recipe while the native guest-teacher tells a story about how the recipe was passed down from the gods during a local famine or something, I don't consider that some kind of poor compromise.
 
The only information we have about the original "NCEA report" comes through the lens of this professor's complaint about it, and I'm not convinced he's relaying it accurately. I'd like to see the actual report for myself.

Unfortunately, after trying using several combinations of keywords used in the letter, I can't find the report itself by search engine or even on the NCEA website. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

This is a pretty good resource on it.

https://ncea.education.govt.nz/science/science?view=learning
 
That link is massive but mentions it lots if you just page search on "mātauranga"

Lot's of "mātauranga and Western science"
 

Back
Top Bottom